vpFREE2 Forums

$1 FPDW

#1

In a message dated 6/24/2003 6:02:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
vegas_iwish@yahoo.com writes:

I am a visitor 2-3 times a year &I ask the same question Scot did.
$$$ is the bottom line. Rooms are so cheap they don't factor in
highly. Same with most comps.

Rooms can be very cheap in Las Vegas, but very nice rooms can cost between
$100 to $300 daily. Very nice meals can be expensive. Entertainment costs can
be very expensive. Which tourist is getting the better deal, the one who
plays 8 hours of $ VP with a 100.7% ER and gets a few coffee shop meals taken care
of, or the one playing at 100.5% and getting room, meals, maybe shows and
other expenses... maybe even possible free invites to tournaments and attractions
that further increase a trips ER? Do the math. Value given up in ER is more
than made up for in value received in comps, if you actually need and value
the comp. Perspective is everything. Anyway, at least in my case, if money
were truly the bottom line, I'd stay at home and work.

Chandler

"...there is always a well-known solution to every human problem--neat,
plausible, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#2

Like the constant promoter of the wonders of LVH who won't play FPDW
because it is "boring", it is not value but ego that is too big a
part of some calculations. I would never value a hotel room at $100-
300 or more a night & pretend to count that against real money.
Gambling properly IS work.

In a message dated 6/24/2003 6:02:41 AM Central Daylight Time,
vegas_iwish@y... writes:

> I am a visitor 2-3 times a year &I ask the same question Scot

did.

> $$$ is the bottom line. Rooms are so cheap they don't factor in
> highly. Same with most comps.
>

Rooms can be very cheap in Las Vegas, but very nice rooms can cost

between

$100 to $300 daily. Very nice meals can be expensive.

Entertainment costs can

be very expensive. Which tourist is getting the better deal, the

one who

plays 8 hours of $ VP with a 100.7% ER and gets a few coffee shop

meals taken care

of, or the one playing at 100.5% and getting room, meals, maybe

shows and

other expenses... maybe even possible free invites to tournaments

and attractions

that further increase a trips ER? Do the math. Value given up in

ER is more

than made up for in value received in comps, if you actually need

and value

the comp. Perspective is everything. Anyway, at least in my case,

if money

were truly the bottom line, I'd stay at home and work.

Chandler

"...there is always a well-known solution to every human problem--

neat,

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, cmayhem@a... wrote:

plausible, and wrong." H. L. Mencken

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#3

"Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:

I would never value a hotel room at $100-300 or more a night

This is true, but isn't necessarily relevent to how much value the
room holds for someone else. "Value" is often mistakenly discussed as
if it's a property of things (the room/meal/show has thus-&-such
a "value"). In fact, "value" is a property of one's desire for
something. Since there's so much variation in individual desires,
it's perfectly possible that the same room could have a value of $20
to one person & $500 to another. The *price* of the room on the open
market may be something else again, but this isn't necessarily of
interest to anyone who's unable to re-sell it.

& pretend to count that against real money.

Most people gamble (and work, live, etc) not to maximize liquid
assets, but to maximize happiness. So one ends up making calculations
between cash in your hand (so-called "real money") & the value one
assigns to non-cash items, based on one's own preferences.

Gambling properly IS work.

If gambling is pursued *purely* to maximize cash profits, then it's
indeed work, in the sense that it's not connected to any effort to
specifically maximize happiness.

Since cash profits can be so easily measured & stored etc, there's a
tendency to pay excessive energy & attention to them. That is, one
can so easily put profits in a bank, & keep perfect track of their
growth. Those of us who have some skill with numbers, & have been
rewarded through life in various ways through using that skill,
sometimes get hypnotised by tracking the numbers, forgetting that
there's a non-linear relationship between money & happiness (I
believe that some religions etc talk about this using slightly
different terms).

The overall quality of one's life & relationships can't be measured,
& therefore often get sort shrift. But automatically over-valuing
measurable profits isn't necessarily the best or proper course.

As a math geek myself, I think it's extraordinarily useful to know
how to maximize profits. People who don't understand math can create
endless difficulties for themselves for no reason at all, if they
don't understand how to maximize profits (through, for instance,
correct video poker game selection & play).

But once one knows how to maximize profits, one ought to retain the
freedom of deciding how much time & effort to devote to getting real
cash. If one introduces "fun" or similar elements into gambling, for
instance, & assigns one's own values to these new elements, it may
have a negative effect on real-money profits, but still be a
subjectively happy choice.

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@attbi.com
http://home.attbi.com/~sresnick2/mypage.htm

#4

Tonight Brad had the choice between playing at Terribles with a very good math value (promotions, drawings, bonus) -- or staying home where our 10-year-old grandson from NY and I were going swimming in our condo complex pool and then watching a TV show about UFO's. (Zachary is a budding scientist.)

Terribles, with all the math value, lost out to family values. EV can mean entertainment value!

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
   Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5

Very well stated.
As a math-oriented person myself, profit optimization is ALWAYS in the
back of my mind. It's a natural gift (or curse).
Althought not used for computational purposes, in the back of my
mind, I value a weekend room rate in vegas at around $50 and weekday
room at $25. It's not really "cash back", but it could be figured
into the whole equation.

Of course, if the property doesn't have any good plays, or is on a
downhill slide, it doesn't make much sense to stay there. For
example, even with free room offers from Coast Casinos, I just can't
stay there, as I can't play proficient DB.

With all that being said, maximizing value for the serious "level 3"
gambler will be different than for the casual "level 4" gambler.

"Michael Boutot" <vegas_iwish@y...> wrote:
> I would never value a hotel room at $100-300 or more a night

This is true, but isn't necessarily relevent to how much value the
room holds for someone else. "Value" is often mistakenly discussed

as

if it's a property of things (the room/meal/show has thus-&-such
a "value"). In fact, "value" is a property of one's desire for
something. Since there's so much variation in individual desires,
it's perfectly possible that the same room could have a value of $20
to one person & $500 to another. The *price* of the room on the open
market may be something else again, but this isn't necessarily of
interest to anyone who's unable to re-sell it.

> & pretend to count that against real money.

Most people gamble (and work, live, etc) not to maximize liquid
assets, but to maximize happiness. So one ends up making

calculations

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Stuart" <sresnick2@a...> wrote:

between cash in your hand (so-called "real money") & the value one
assigns to non-cash items, based on one's own preferences.

> Gambling properly IS work.

If gambling is pursued *purely* to maximize cash profits, then it's
indeed work, in the sense that it's not connected to any effort to
specifically maximize happiness.

Since cash profits can be so easily measured & stored etc, there's a
tendency to pay excessive energy & attention to them. That is, one
can so easily put profits in a bank, & keep perfect track of their
growth. Those of us who have some skill with numbers, & have been
rewarded through life in various ways through using that skill,
sometimes get hypnotised by tracking the numbers, forgetting that
there's a non-linear relationship between money & happiness (I
believe that some religions etc talk about this using slightly
different terms).

The overall quality of one's life & relationships can't be measured,
& therefore often get sort shrift. But automatically over-valuing
measurable profits isn't necessarily the best or proper course.

As a math geek myself, I think it's extraordinarily useful to know
how to maximize profits. People who don't understand math can create
endless difficulties for themselves for no reason at all, if they
don't understand how to maximize profits (through, for instance,
correct video poker game selection & play).

But once one knows how to maximize profits, one ought to retain the
freedom of deciding how much time & effort to devote to getting real
cash. If one introduces "fun" or similar elements into gambling, for
instance, & assigns one's own values to these new elements, it may
have a negative effect on real-money profits, but still be a
subjectively happy choice.

Stuart (RandomStu)
sresnick2@a...
http://home.attbi.com/~sresnick2/mypage.htm