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$1 FPDW

#21

I guess if we want to take the position of
"if we tell you how you could better serve us,
and therefore the other 99.5% of your customer base
(resulting in LOTS of profits for you), it would
behoove you to have some games we would want to play
and not get snippy when we do well at them",
then I guess that might not be so bad, but I don't know
if the casinos would be so willing to play ball
that way... again, call me suspicious :wink:

As someone new to the group, I realize I am probably asking to get bitched at, but I will weigh in anyway. As a new person looking in, it appears there is a feeling among many in this group that full pay vp is a right that the casinos must give us. It appears that what is lost among the group is the fact that the casinos are in business to make money- full pay machines are a privilege they can choose to extend or not.

The fallacy in the above statement is obvious (and to the poster, please note this is not intended as an attack, you were just the example that struck a chord)- this group only represents maybe .5% of the casino customers, not the 99.5%. The vast hordes that are out there don't have a clue that one machine pays better or worse than another. They don't know what pay tables are better. They are there for entertainment. The casinos have to walk a fine line between paying back enough to keep the folks interested and remaining profitable. They all are attempting to do that in one form or another. George Maloof has one way, which helps keep many of the members of this group happy, and the MGM-Mirages (PPE, Harrah's, whoever) have their way. Now obviously all those huge hotels demonstrate that many of the casinos are very profitable. But this perception that full pay is a right is simply wrong.

I still like Anthony Curtis's statement that Gaming is a form of entertainment with a unique payment method- known as the house edge (or something like that). The folks in this group are obviously an industrious lot- you have figured out how to maximize value (and in some cases be profitable) and I commend you for that. But to think that casinos have to provide full pay games is simply not the case. The Gaming Commission sets up rules that allow the casinos to be profitable- heck they want the casinos to be profitable so the State's major source of revenue does not dry up (in Nevada, anyway).

So I guess my point is- enjoy those opportunities that allow you to make money and give your business to them, but don't be surprised when the casino's margin drops and they have to change what they are paying out. It is going to happen over and over again.

Stepping off my soapbox now- and strapping on my flak jacket- JMHO- Thanks, Lee.

Ps- I am not in the casino business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#22

Lee Crowell wrote:

this group only represents maybe .5% of the casino customers, not the 99.5%.

A closer percentage that this group represents is .0000001%, if that much.

Bob

#23

I certainly agree that full pay VP is not a right.
I don't agree that it is a privilege .
Full Pay VP is a lure, just like in fishing.
The Casino wants to catch the fish, and the fish want to steal the bait.
The Casino is in business to make money, so are the skilled players, that is what makes it fun. Nobody wants to gamble the Casinos don't like to gamble, and the Skilled players are investing.

The attitude of many on this group (myself include) are like any shoppers on the day that the grocery flyers come out. Who has what on sale this week, and that is where I will shop. If my favorite grocery store stops carrying the products that I like or raises their prices I go elsewhere. What makes Vegas great is the competition.

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Lee Crowell
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 12:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Casino monitioring of VP internet forums

  As someone new to the group, I realize I am probably asking to get bitched at, but I will weigh in anyway. As a new person looking in, it appears there is a feeling among many in this group that full pay vp is a right that the casinos must give us. It appears that what is lost among the group is the fact that the casinos are in business to make money- full pay machines are a privilege they can choose to extend or not.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#24

Albert Pearson wrote: "The attitude of many on this group (myself include) are like any shoppers on the day that the grocery flyers come out. Who has what on sale this week, and that is where I will shop. If my favorite grocery store stops carrying the products that I like or raises their prices I go elsewhere. What makes Vegas great is the competition."

That's a good analogy. There's also another attitude of many on this group (sticking with the grocery store theme). Many, like myself, go shopping at the nearest, cleanest, most modern store because of the convenience, ambience, and the fact that I'd rather spend the extra time doing something I consider more meaningful. The prices may be higher on some items, may be lower on others. Competition doesn't enter the equation--only getting the job done in the most comfortable of atmospheres, ie., getting the groceries I intended to get and going home.

************************************************************************************************* The refreshing TRUTH about Video Poker....Links/Articles/Videos/Play Results/10 Rules of Playing To Win/Newsletters/Winning Strategies. All For FREE! Visit http://www.vptruth.com/index2.cfm

#25

An excellent response to that kind of ntion. Casinos wil worry enough
about thier own welfare without others worrying too.

I certainly agree that full pay VP is not a right.
I don't agree that it is a privilege .
Full Pay VP is a lure, just like in fishing.
The Casino wants to catch the fish, and the fish want to steal the

bait.

The Casino is in business to make money, so are the skilled

players, that is what makes it fun. Nobody wants to gamble the
Casinos don't like to gamble, and the Skilled players are investing.

The attitude of many on this group (myself include) are like any

shoppers on the day that the grocery flyers come out. Who has what on
sale this week, and that is where I will shop. If my favorite grocery
store stops carrying the products that I like or raises their prices
I go elsewhere. What makes Vegas great is the competition.

Regards
A.P.
  From: Lee Crowell
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 12:43 AM
  Subject: Re: [vpFREE] Re: Casino monitioring of VP internet forums

  As someone new to the group, I realize I am probably asking to

get bitched at, but I will weigh in anyway. As a new person looking
in, it appears there is a feeling among many in this group that full
pay vp is a right that the casinos must give us. It appears that what
is lost among the group is the fact that the casinos are in business
to make money- full pay machines are a privilege they can choose to
extend or not.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Albert Pearson" <a-p@s...> wrote:

  ----- Original Message -----

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#26

Assuming 30,000,000 visitors per year (though there are probably many duplicates) and 2,135
members of this group, it's more like .007%. But who's quibbling?

Jim

···

--- Bob Sommer - Top of the World Coins <NL7HT@barrow.com> wrote:

Lee Crowell wrote:

> this group only represents maybe .5% of the casino customers, not the
> 99.5%.

A closer percentage that this group represents is .0000001%, if that much.

Bob

vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/a7ga

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

#27

<sticking with the grocery store theme>>

Funny, I just wrote a future FF column on this very same subject. Great minds run in the same......

···

____________________
Jean $cott - "The Frugal Gambler"
Order autographed book, cassette tape, and the new
   Frugal VP software at http://www.frugalgambler.biz
Read Frugal Fridays at http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#28

Ambience does not have anything to do with efficiency/saving time.
Back to an ego issue. Are people really that silly to be unable to
sit downtown at the Cal or similiar just because they have less
people fawning over them? Same activity...

Albert Pearson wrote: "The attitude of many on this group (myself

include) are like any shoppers on the day that the grocery flyers
come out. Who has what on sale this week, and that is where I will
shop. If my favorite grocery store stops carrying the products that I
like or raises their prices I go elsewhere. What makes Vegas great is
the competition."

That's a good analogy. There's also another attitude of many on

this group (sticking with the grocery store theme). Many, like
myself, go shopping at the nearest, cleanest, most modern store
because of the convenience, ambience, and the fact that I'd rather
spend the extra time doing something I consider more meaningful. The
prices may be higher on some items, may be lower on others.
Competition doesn't enter the equation--only getting the job done in
the most comfortable of atmospheres, ie., getting the groceries I
intended to get and going home.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Singer" <rsinger1111@c...> wrote:

**********************************************************************
*************************** The refreshing TRUTH about Video
Poker....Links/Articles/Videos/Play Results/10 Rules of Playing To
Win/Newsletters/Winning Strategies. All For FREE! Visit
http://www.vptruth.com/index2.cfm

#29

Bob just upset no one mentioning the wonders of the LVH or how boring
DW is every few posts :wink:

Assuming 30,000,000 visitors per year (though there are probably

many duplicates) and 2,135

members of this group, it's more like .007%. But who's quibbling?

Jim

--- Bob Sommer - Top of the World Coins <NL7HT@b...> wrote:
> Lee Crowell wrote:
>
> > this group only represents maybe .5% of the casino customers,

not the

> > 99.5%.
>
>
> A closer percentage that this group represents is .0000001%, if

that much.

>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> vpFREE Links: http://tinyurl.com/a7ga
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Jim Tsalikis <tsalikis@y...> wrote:

>
>

#30

Just some clarifications :slight_smile:

First off, I was trying to communicate how the casinos' gleaning
advice about their programs off of us (the educated .5%, or more or
less) would also benefit the rest of casino patrons as well. As far
as whether things like full-pay VP are "rights", I wouldn't say that
they are, BUT if we were to be in a more direct two-way relationship
with casinos and offering them our expertise, it makes sense for them
to offer it as a good-will gesture at the very least :slight_smile:

>I guess if we want to take the position of
>"if we tell you how you could better serve us,
>and therefore the other 99.5% of your customer base
>(resulting in LOTS of profits for you), it would
>behoove you to have some games we would want to play
>and not get snippy when we do well at them",
>then I guess that might not be so bad, but I don't know
>if the casinos would be so willing to play ball
>that way... again, call me suspicious :wink:

As someone new to the group, I realize I am probably asking to get

bitched at, but I will weigh in anyway. As a new person looking in,
it appears there is a feeling among many in this group that full pay
vp is a right that the casinos must give us. It appears that what is
lost among the group is the fact that the casinos are in business to
make money- full pay machines are a privilege they can choose to
extend or not.

The fallacy in the above statement is obvious (and to the poster,

please note this is not intended as an attack, you were just the
example that struck a chord)- this group only represents maybe .5% of
the casino customers, not the 99.5%. The vast hordes that are out
there don't have a clue that one machine pays better or worse than
another. They don't know what pay tables are better. They are there
for entertainment. The casinos have to walk a fine line between
paying back enough to keep the folks interested and remaining
profitable. They all are attempting to do that in one form or
another. George Maloof has one way, which helps keep many of the
members of this group happy, and the MGM-Mirages (PPE, Harrah's,
whoever) have their way. Now obviously all those huge hotels
demonstrate that many of the casinos are very profitable. But this
perception that full pay is a right is simply wrong.

I still like Anthony Curtis's statement that Gaming is a form of

entertainment with a unique payment method- known as the house edge
(or something like that). The folks in this group are obviously an
industrious lot- you have figured out how to maximize value (and in
some cases be profitable) and I commend you for that. But to think
that casinos have to provide full pay games is simply not the case.
The Gaming Commission sets up rules that allow the casinos to be
profitable- heck they want the casinos to be profitable so the
State's major source of revenue does not dry up (in Nevada, anyway).

So I guess my point is- enjoy those opportunities that allow you to

make money and give your business to them, but don't be surprised
when the casino's margin drops and they have to change what they are
paying out. It is going to happen over and over again.

Stepping off my soapbox now- and strapping on my flak jacket- JMHO-

Thanks, Lee.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Crowell" <l.crowell@c...> wrote:

Ps- I am not in the casino business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#31

It all comes down to value.
Like I've said before, everything in a Casino has a value, that can be different depending on the individual. You add up the numbers , and you end up with your favorite Casino.

I believe that comparing Casinos is somewhat like comparing food or wine, everyone has different tastes. Some people actually hate the Bellagio buffet (too fancy, weird foods), some love it (gourmet, exotic) .

There are just too many variables to take into account for anyone to say what is the best Casino. That is why I don't buy into lists of best Casinos.

I have totally written off the Gold Coast as a place to stay and one of the reasons is that they don't filter the water that goes into the ice machines, this makes drinks that have ice in them smell and taste like Vegas tap water - bleech . Now granted this may not be a great factor, but it is a tie breaker.

I urge everyone to make a list of all the things that they consider in evaluating a casino...
such as.....

Room size
View from room
Location, location,location
Bathroom size
TV size
room decor
cleanliness
Air conditioning
Quality of beds
Water pressure in shower
glass or plastic drink cups
toiletries provided
Iron, hairdryer in room
wake up service
room service
maid service
darkness of curtains
noise levels
length of walk from elevators
how far to ice machines
quality of ice

And in the Casino

smoky
noise levels
looks of CW's
frequency of drink service
quality of drinks
width of aisles
employee attitudes
decor
temperature
quality and variety of restaurants, bars and entertainment and their prices
ease of parking, speed of valets.
speed and ease of checkin, checkout.

Oh Yes then there is gambling

quality of vp
variety of table games
dealer attitudes
coin or tickets
cashback
comps
promotions

Does anyone wonder why we can't all agree on which is the best casino ?

Regards
A.P.

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Michael Boutot
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 3:27 PM
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Casino monitioring of VP internet forums

  Ambience does not have anything to do with efficiency/saving time.
  Back to an ego issue. Are people really that silly to be unable to
  sit downtown at the Cal or similiar just because they have less
  people fawning over them? Same activity...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#32

Albert Pearson wrote:

Does anyone wonder why we can't all agree on which is the best casino ?

If, at one time, Ann Landers' readers could debate with conviction
months on end about the proper direction in which to hang a roll of
toilet paper, who would imagine for a moment that there would be a
consensus on something like this?

- H.

#33

Michael Boutot wrote:

Bob just upset no one mentioning the wonders of the LVH or how boring
DW is every few posts :wink:

You might be surprised what I really think of those that play DW. However, I have no problem with those that play it because I know why they play it. But "I" don't like it for the very reason you stated, no matter what denomination it may come in.

As far as the LVH is concerned, I do stay at the LVH for half of my 10 night trips and somewhere else for the remainder, but I do believe there are many others on this board that will also tell you of the wonders of it. Actually, I'm more concerned that the word will get out and screw it up for those of us that have been going there a long time. Fortunately it is not on the strip or a local casino, so most on these boards will not play or stay there with any regularity..

Bob

#34

Harry Porter wrote

If, at one time, Ann Landers' readers could debate with conviction
months on end about the proper direction in which to hang a roll of
toilet paper, who would imagine for a moment that there would be a
consensus on something like this?

Very good analogy!!

Bob

#35

Bob Sommer wrote:

> Bob just upset no one mentioning the wonders of the LVH or how
> boring DW is every few posts :wink:
  
I have no problem with those that play it because I know why they
play it. But "I" don't like it for the very reason you stated, no
matter what denomination it may come in.

Bob, just don't tell us that you're a pick'em player :).

As far as the LVH is concerned, I do stay at the LVH for half of my
10 night trips and somewhere else for the remainder, but I do believe
there are many others on this board that will also tell you of the
wonders of it. Actually, I'm more concerned that the word will get
out and screw it up for those of us that have been going there a long
time.
Fortunately it is not on the strip or a local casino, so most on
these boards will not play or stay there with any regularity..

You touch on an interesting aspect of LVH ... it's truly a unique
entity. Those who are hard core fans of either the locals or the
Strip are likely to be disappointed with what they find. (I can't
speak from experience, but I get the feeling that it's a little more
akin to some of the casinos in the midwest/south.)

I'm sure there have been more than a few players who have stepped foot
in LVH, only to walk away a couple of hours later wondering why anyone
would bother.

- Harry

#36

Harry Porter wrote

Bob, just don't tell us that you're a pick'em player :).

I play $1 pick'em a few hours during my stay, but it is not my main game.

You touch on an interesting aspect of LVH ... it's truly a unique
entity. Those who are hard core fans of either the locals or the
Strip are likely to be disappointed with what they find. (I can't
speak from experience, but I get the feeling that it's a little more
akin to some of the casinos in the midwest/south.)

Can't help you there. Others might disagree with you, but then, I have never been to a midwest/south casino either. I have been playing in Nevada since 1966, and started playing VP in early 1980 in Reno and have no plans to change states to find out.

Bob