vpFREE2 Forums

$1 FPDW in Reno

Just returned from Reno.
Found the $1 FPDW at Harrah*s (I reported I couldn't find them in a
previous post).
Also found 14 (banks of 8 and 6) lightning fast multi-multi TITO
brand-new GameKings at the Silver Legacy with FPDW in 25c/50c/$1.
The other games on these machines have strange names like Super
Double Double Bonus Plus which I don't know the vigs on, but the
Double Bonus is 9-6. I suspect that all the other games are WAY
below 100%. All these machines are located next to the ladies'
restroom by the pai-gow pit. They are uprights, and playing one-
handed (I prefer to play upright touch-screen machines one-handed,
alternating between my left and right hands every 15 minutes or so),
I clocked myself doing a sustainable one thousand plus hands per
hour. The strange thing about this was during the weekend, I put in
about 15 hours of play and there was only one other serious player
there the whole time.
The Silver Legacy's comp menu hasn't changed since last February:
for VP, it's $20 coin-in per point, 500 points for a comped room any
day of the week. The Sterling's wonderful Sunday brunch (endless
champagne, king crab, lamb chops, and don't miss the raspberry mouse
cake) can be had for 175 points.

L. Wluiki

After I posted about the $1 TITO FPDW machines at the Reno Silver
Legacy (message #24298), I received several private emails regarding
the merits in making public such a high profit play. The common
concern seems to be the worry that the pros/vultures will decent
upon the SL and kill it immediately. The following is an open reply
to what I considered to be just criticism:

Thank you for your email. I do understand your concerns about
posting such a positive play. Indeed, I agonized over this dilemma
for several days, weighing the pros and cons before decided to post.
The following considerations (sometimes self-contradictory) went
into my decision:
1) The pros have a very extensive information network, and this
play, if worth their while, will be pounded into extinction
regardless of my actions. Therefore I might as well post this
information to vpFREE and benefit our members here.
2) From my experience, a play like this will probably last for
about 2 to 3 months, again regardless of my actions (remember those
brand new $1 FPDW Fast-Metered Progressives at the Atlantis when it
first opened the Oyster Bar and Sky Terrace?). I think this is
another promotional decision very deliberately made by the
management of the SL.
3) This play is worth about $400 per day plus full RFB in a
suite----A borderline case for the pros. I don't envision pros
flying in from all over just to take advantage of this; and if I'm
wrong, my post at vpFREE will alert them to the possibility that
they may not have a monopoly over these machines when they arrive.
4) I am not a pro (nor was I meant to be/ Am an attendant lord,
one that will do/ To swell a progressive, start a scene or
two/....QOC: eat your heart out), but I don't loathe them; indeed, I
sort of admire them: "it's a hard way to make an easy
living", "anyone who can make money playing video poker can make a
lot more money doing something else", I certainly admire Royal Cat.
Pros need to make a living too, so if $50 an hour plus room and
board minus RT airfare and w2-g's is attractive to you, come on
down! (QOC=Queen Of Comps)
5) I recall the fuss our members had this summer over the $1
FPDW at the Rainbow Club, including the open plea for QOC to
adjudicate the case, and this reinforced my trust in our esteemed
Administrator's foresight in promoting a "sunshine policy" regarding
good vp opportunities.
6) As mentioned in (2) above, the SL didn't just "happen" to
install these machines, or gave "everybody and his brother" $500
just to come visit. At the face of declining revenues, Reno casinos
first tried to tighten their games and comps, that didn't work; now
in desperation, they are going the other way; that's probably not
going to work either. Everybody says that in order for Reno to
survive, it has to "reinvent itself", but nobody knows what that
MEANS (how can you reinvent cheap food, cheap rooms, and a cheap
gamble?) Third quarter net profits for the casino mall in downtown
Reno was down by more than 60%; and the worst is yet to come, with
inclement weather (chain requirements, road closures) in almost
every weekend and in the Holidays, the fourth quarter may very well
show a net loss. I predicted the closures of the Sundowner, the
Fitzgerald's, the Siena, and the stillbirth of the Golden Phoenix;
but that is not going to be enough. The SL, being jointly owned by
the Mandalay Bay Group and the El Dorado, may not have the stomach
to endure a continuous decline with no end in sight. The current
situation is simply not sustainable. And if one of the three casinos
in this casino mall is going to be closed, it will have to be the
SL. So once again, come on down, while the good times last.

Am I being too gloomy or just being realistic? Make no mistake about
this: my relationship with the casinos is definitely not symbiotic;
I am a parasite, but I am a considerate, non-virulent parasite. It
does me no good to intentionally hurt my host without a huge gain in
return, and I certainly will not kill my host. The problem here of
course is not Reno, but the proliferation of uncontrolled,
unregulated, and untaxed Indian casinos in California. When
California voters approved the Constitutional Amendment (Proposition
1A) in 2000, the common consensus was that "let the Indians have
their casinos, as long as they don't build one in MY neighborhood".
Well, there is one in my neighborhood now (Thunder Valley) that is
taking $700 million dollars from my community (instead of from
whales from Singapore or farmers from Iowa) and returning less than
10% of that in the form of low wage service-oriented jobs. The
impacts are predictable: lower property values, higher crime rates,
higher bankruptcy rates, and higher divorce rates. It will take
decades for the residents here to learn how to live near and with
the casinos. In the meantime, my hosts in Northern Nevada are being
strangulated. To this parasite at least, this is a matter of great
despair.

I will be delighted if the above generates further discussions, in
public, or in private, concerning the posting of good games in
general, and in particular the game in question, as well as the
future of Reno, and the proliferation of Native American gaming in
California and in other States.

L. Wluiki

Your life, your call, post what you will and bag those that tell you not to.
I cannot believe someone would have the utter gall to e-mail you and
chastise you about it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

After I posted about the $1 TITO FPDW machines at the Reno Silver
Legacy (message #24298), I received several private emails

regarding

the merits in making public such a high profit play. The common
concern seems to be the worry that the pros/vultures will decent
upon the SL and kill it immediately.

If that were to happen, it would be "pros/vultures" killing the
play, not you.

1) The pros have a very extensive information network, and this
play, if worth their while, will be pounded into extinction
regardless of my actions. Therefore I might as well post this
information to vpFREE and benefit our members here.

Thanks for the information, I will be unable to use it, and doubt
many will. After the Rainbow Club situation, you are really
contributing to what I understood the spirit of vpFREE to be.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

Just returned from Reno.
Found the $1 FPDW at Harrah*s (I reported I couldn't find them in

a

previous post).
Also found 14 (banks of 8 and 6) lightning fast multi-multi TITO
brand-new GameKings at the Silver Legacy with FPDW in 25c/50c/$1.
The other games on these machines have strange names like Super
Double Double Bonus Plus which I don't know the vigs on, but the
Double Bonus is 9-6. I suspect that all the other games are WAY
below 100%. All these machines are located next to the ladies'
restroom by the pai-gow pit. They are uprights, and playing one-
handed (I prefer to play upright touch-screen machines one-handed,
alternating between my left and right hands every 15 minutes or

so),

I clocked myself doing a sustainable one thousand plus hands per
hour. The strange thing about this was during the weekend, I put

in

about 15 hours of play and there was only one other serious player
there the whole time.
The Silver Legacy's comp menu hasn't changed since last February:
for VP, it's $20 coin-in per point, 500 points for a comped room

any

day of the week. The Sterling's wonderful Sunday brunch (endless
champagne, king crab, lamb chops, and don't miss the raspberry

mouse

cake) can be had for 175 points.

L. Wluiki

The key is if the Dueces are handpays or not. Silver Legacy is know
for having change and floor people toke hustlers. If the Dueces are
handpay expect a very snide "Thank You Very Much" if you don't toke
on the Dueces.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

The key is if the Dueces are handpays or not. Silver Legacy is

know

for having change and floor people toke hustlers. If the Dueces

are

handpay expect a very snide "Thank You Very Much" if you don't

toke

on the Dueces.

.....................................................................

All single wins of $1,000 and above are handpays. I objected, after
toking $10 for the 10 c-notes (at least it was not 9 c-notes plus 5
$20's) and the excuse was that the "Ticket Exchange" machines will
not exchange tickets over $999. I found that hard to believe, as I
have no such problems in other casinos. Besides, I'm sure the
cashier's cage will have no problem cashing tickets of ANY amount.

L. Wluiki

IMHO, there are more lurkers here than you might
think. I have started to post here recently. One of my
posts was mainly a trip report highlighting my
"somewhat lucky" $20,000 VP Royal hit. I have a bad
tendency to ramble. I specifically asked members of
this group at least three separate times in that post
to respond to me. I think I implied that I do not mind
constructive criticism. I was disappointed to only get
two responses, both positive, btw. One of them was
from frequent poster Karen Allison. Thank you, Karen.
   I especially liked your parasite analogy. I will
remember that one. Do I have to credit you when I
start using it myself?:slight_smile:

···

: "it's a hard way to make an
easy
living", "anyone who can make money playing video
poker can make a
lot more money doing something else",

not symbiotic;
I am a parasite, but I am a considerate,
non-virulent parasite.

=====
there are three kinds of people in this world. Those that make things happen! Those that watch things happen! and those that don't know what's happening!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

I too returned from their this last weekend delighted to stumple on the FPDW at
SL. Yes, the deuces are handpay. Yes the machines are amazingly fast. Yes,
tthe bank was empty except for me almost the whole time and the one time it
wasn't the guy was being told by his friend that Dbl DBL bonus was the game
to play on the machine. And I will also say the slot supervisor was
constantly coming over and talking to me after I hit the dueces and was
watching me play. He made a comment about how fast I was playing and I was
basically unable to use my strategy card at all because I was being watched.
Once when I held quads instead of holding two deuces and going for 4 deauces
he made a comment about why didnt I go for the deuces again? I just said
"I don't know - didn't feel like it this time I guess."

This was my first visit to SL and I was only there for about 5 hours - I didn't
actually stays there - so it will be interesting to see f I get offers from them
at all and how I am treated if I return and decide to stay there.

Sabyl

···

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, VpKing77 wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:
> Just returned from Reno.
> Found the $1 FPDW at Harrah*s (I reported I couldn't find them in
a
> previous post).
> Also found 14 (banks of 8 and 6) lightning fast multi-multi TITO
> brand-new GameKings at the Silver Legacy with FPDW in 25c/50c/$1.
> The other games on these machines have strange names like Super
> Double Double Bonus Plus which I don't know the vigs on, but the
> Double Bonus is 9-6. I suspect that all the other games are WAY
> below 100%. All these machines are located next to the ladies'
> restroom by the pai-gow pit. They are uprights, and playing one-
> handed (I prefer to play upright touch-screen machines one-handed,
> alternating between my left and right hands every 15 minutes or
so),
> I clocked myself doing a sustainable one thousand plus hands per
> hour. The strange thing about this was during the weekend, I put
in
> about 15 hours of play and there was only one other serious player
> there the whole time.
> The Silver Legacy's comp menu hasn't changed since last February:
> for VP, it's $20 coin-in per point, 500 points for a comped room
any
> day of the week. The Sterling's wonderful Sunday brunch (endless
> champagne, king crab, lamb chops, and don't miss the raspberry
mouse
> cake) can be had for 175 points.
>
> L. Wluiki

The key is if the Dueces are handpays or not. Silver Legacy is know
for having change and floor people toke hustlers. If the Dueces are
handpay expect a very snide "Thank You Very Much" if you don't toke
on the Dueces.

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
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I have only recently begun to post on the list. I have made a few private
replies in the past. Lurkers are not evil. SOme people just need time to feel
confortable with a group before they post to it. And I have to admit that at
times there can be so much animosity to a post that it does make nervous to
post. Also, as a fairly new VP player relative to the group, I don't always
feel I have a lot of useful information to contribute. I will say that anytime
I have asked a question to the group, I have always gotten answers. :slight_smile:

Sabyl
sabyl@speakeasy.org

···

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003, Joe Pucek wrote:

   IMHO, there are more lurkers here than you might
think. I have started to post here recently. One of my
posts was mainly a trip report highlighting my
"somewhat lucky" $20,000 VP Royal hit. I have a bad
tendency to ramble. I specifically asked members of
this group at least three separate times in that post
to respond to me. I think I implied that I do not mind
constructive criticism. I was disappointed to only get
two responses, both positive, btw. One of them was
from frequent poster Karen Allison. Thank you, Karen.
   I especially liked your parasite analogy. I will
remember that one. Do I have to credit you when I
start using it myself?:slight_smile:
>: "it's a hard way to make an
> easy
> living", "anyone who can make money playing video
> poker can make a
> lot more money doing something else",

> not symbiotic;
> I am a parasite, but I am a considerate,
> non-virulent parasite.

=====
there are three kinds of people in this world. Those that make things happen! Those that watch things happen! and those that don't know what's happening!

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
http://photos.yahoo.com/

vpFREE Links: http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I haven't heard of anyone ever getting chastised for using strategy
cards. Has anyone in the group had a problem with this? I've never made
much of an attempt to keep mine completely under wraps. I go pretty much
by Dancer's rule of using it but not flaunting it. Dick Mck.. ps.
Hope everyone in the group has a great Holiday Season. D.

sabyl wrote:

   He made a comment about how fast I was playing and I was
basically unable to use my strategy card at all because I was being
watched.
Once when I held quads instead of holding two deuces and going for 4
deauces
he made a comment about why didnt I go for the deuces again? I just
said
"I don't know - didn't feel like it this time I guess."

>
>
> vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vpFREE/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vpFREE-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

vpFREE Links:
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Links.htm

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     Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At the face of declining revenues, Reno casinos
first tried to tighten their games and comps, that didn't work;

what a bonehead move
they initially blamed "advantage" players

now
in desperation, they are going the other way; that's probably not
going to work either.

it can work, in fact it is the only workable solution. the trick is
games that attract good players (and average players that are
attracted to good players) without being hammered by pros. the
problem with pros is that they overplay and prevent average players
from getting on and this prevents casinos from making a profit.
casinos make money from average players, but average players aren't
clueless, they look for good players and play the games they play,
*if they can get on* - generally good players don't hog machines, but
pros do. $fpdw is probably not a great game from the casino
standpoint, too many people know how to play, the game is too simple.
what casinos need is more complex games like double bonus and all
american and 10/6 double double bonus. all american is bally's, so
that's got limitations, but what a great game that would be in tito
format. 10/6 double double bonus is probably the answer, the game is
popular anyway, and 10/6 is just a looser form, of course it needs
cash back or bounce back cash or card of the day or coupons to lift
the return somewhere between 0.5-1% (over 1% would probably attract
too many pros and/or aggressive players). kings or better 20/7/5
joker poker may also be a winning game. another option would be 9/7
double double bonus.

the key for the casinos is to attract the average and good players,
but not the aggressive players who are often pros. if a promo
attracts too many aggressive players, don't kill it, just reduce it
slightly, at some point the aggressive players will leave and
everyone else will get a chance to play. casinos need to find that
fine point - in the past they have generally given away the bank
(over +1%) and then killed it or tightened up way too much chasing
everyone away, the key is to find that optimum middle ground - empty
casino? loosen up a bit (just a bit) - aggressive players hogging
machines? tighten up a bit (just a bit). the casino optimum is a busy
casino but not with aggressive players hogging the good machines.

The problem here of
course is not Reno, but the proliferation of uncontrolled,
unregulated, and untaxed Indian casinos in California.

Yep, it took nevada quite a while to figure out regulated gambling,
same with new jersey, and miss. is more or less still working on it.
Cali is experimenting with unregulated gambling, which makes about as
much sense as unregulated public power or unregulated alcohol. But
clearly Nevada is gonna have to go through some big changes because
Cali is going to be the dominant gambling state.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

I'll be at SL next week and I'm sure these new TITO's will make there way into
my trip report. I spent a chunk of each previous trip there on those .25 FPDW
progressives (are they still there?). There were banks of 8 and 6 of those, I
had the thought that 8 and 6 Games Kings might have replaced them as the
TITOs location noted sounds very close to where the FPDW Progs are.

Anyhow, this was a most enlightening post, and I've never noticed pros in
Reno, maybe it takes $1 denoms of Full-Pay to lure them to this sleepy berg,
we'll see. My eyes will open a little wider this next trip.

Yes, the 60% profit decrease seems like a lot, I guess I never imagined a
casino of such stature actually going out-of-business. Phoenix- yes- I've gone
there to escape the crowds at Silver at times, I can sense the death throes. At
least the Silver is trying.

I think there ARE a lot of lurkers, but not many have the bankroll to properly
attack a $1 full-pay opportunity. I know I don't. I'll go with the .50 denom HA!

I'll update what other games are on these Game Kings if no one beats me to
it.

Thanks for the info, I think the flavor of my next week's visit just changed.

Yee Haaa.

  ~MARK P

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

After I posted about the $1 TITO FPDW machines at the Reno Silver
Legacy (message #24298), I received several private emails regarding
the merits in making public such a high profit play. The common
concern seems to be the worry that the pros/vultures will decent
upon the SL and kill it immediately. The following is an open reply
to what I considered to be just criticism:

Thank you for your email. I do understand your concerns about
posting such a positive play. Indeed, I agonized over this dilemma
for several days, weighing the pros and cons before decided to post.
The following considerations (sometimes self-contradictory) went
into my decision:
1) The pros have a very extensive information network, and this
play, if worth their while, will be pounded into extinction
regardless of my actions. Therefore I might as well post this
information to vpFREE and benefit our members here.
2) From my experience, a play like this will probably last for
about 2 to 3 months, again regardless of my actions (remember those
brand new $1 FPDW Fast-Metered Progressives at the Atlantis when it
first opened the Oyster Bar and Sky Terrace?). I think this is
another promotional decision very deliberately made by the
management of the SL.
3) This play is worth about $400 per day plus full RFB in a
suite----A borderline case for the pros. I don't envision pros
flying in from all over just to take advantage of this; and if I'm
wrong, my post at vpFREE will alert them to the possibility that
they may not have a monopoly over these machines when they arrive.
4) I am not a pro (nor was I meant to be/ Am an attendant lord,
one that will do/ To swell a progressive, start a scene or
two/....QOC: eat your heart out), but I don't loathe them; indeed, I
sort of admire them: "it's a hard way to make an easy
living", "anyone who can make money playing video poker can make a
lot more money doing something else", I certainly admire Royal Cat.
Pros need to make a living too, so if $50 an hour plus room and
board minus RT airfare and w2-g's is attractive to you, come on
down! (QOC=Queen Of Comps)
5) I recall the fuss our members had this summer over the $1
FPDW at the Rainbow Club, including the open plea for QOC to
adjudicate the case, and this reinforced my trust in our esteemed
Administrator's foresight in promoting a "sunshine policy" regarding
good vp opportunities.
6) As mentioned in (2) above, the SL didn't just "happen" to
install these machines, or gave "everybody and his brother" $500
just to come visit. At the face of declining revenues, Reno casinos
first tried to tighten their games and comps, that didn't work; now
in desperation, they are going the other way; that's probably not
going to work either. Everybody says that in order for Reno to
survive, it has to "reinvent itself", but nobody knows what that
MEANS (how can you reinvent cheap food, cheap rooms, and a cheap
gamble?) Third quarter net profits for the casino mall in downtown
Reno was down by more than 60%; and the worst is yet to come, with
inclement weather (chain requirements, road closures) in almost
every weekend and in the Holidays, the fourth quarter may very well
show a net loss. I predicted the closures of the Sundowner, the
Fitzgerald's, the Siena, and the stillbirth of the Golden Phoenix;
but that is not going to be enough. The SL, being jointly owned by
the Mandalay Bay Group and the El Dorado, may not have the stomach
to endure a continuous decline with no end in sight. The current
situation is simply not sustainable. And if one of the three casinos
in this casino mall is going to be closed, it will have to be the
SL. So once again, come on down, while the good times last.

Am I being too gloomy or just being realistic? Make no mistake about
this: my relationship with the casinos is definitely not symbiotic;
I am a parasite, but I am a considerate, non-virulent parasite. It
does me no good to intentionally hurt my host without a huge gain in
return, and I certainly will not kill my host. The problem here of
course is not Reno, but the proliferation of uncontrolled,
unregulated, and untaxed Indian casinos in California. When
California voters approved the Constitutional Amendment (Proposition
1A) in 2000, the common consensus was that "let the Indians have
their casinos, as long as they don't build one in MY neighborhood".
Well, there is one in my neighborhood now (Thunder Valley) that is
taking $700 million dollars from my community (instead of from
whales from Singapore or farmers from Iowa) and returning less than
10% of that in the form of low wage service-oriented jobs. The
impacts are predictable: lower property values, higher crime rates,
higher bankruptcy rates, and higher divorce rates. It will take
decades for the residents here to learn how to live near and with
the casinos. In the meantime, my hosts in Northern Nevada are being
strangulated. To this parasite at least, this is a matter of great
despair.

I will be delighted if the above generates further discussions, in
public, or in private, concerning the posting of good games in
general, and in particular the game in question, as well as the
future of Reno, and the proliferation of Native American gaming in
California and in other States.

L. Wluiki

You make many excellent points in your well written post. In fact,
it's so good I can't really add anything to it. Kudos to you. It's
very sad to see walk into a nearly empty Reno casino, especially
knowing it's all due to the mobbed, low payback Ca. Indian Casinos.

George in SF

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

After I posted about the $1 TITO FPDW machines at the Reno Silver
Legacy (message #24298), I received several private emails regarding
the merits in making public such a high profit play. The common
concern seems to be the worry that the pros/vultures will decent
upon the SL and kill it immediately. The following is an open reply
to what I considered to be just criticism:

Thank you for your email. I do understand your concerns about
posting such a positive play. Indeed, I agonized over this dilemma
for several days, weighing the pros and cons before decided to post.
The following considerations (sometimes self-contradictory) went
into my decision:
1) The pros have a very extensive information network, and this
play, if worth their while, will be pounded into extinction
regardless of my actions. Therefore I might as well post this
information to vpFREE and benefit our members here.
2) From my experience, a play like this will probably last for
about 2 to 3 months, again regardless of my actions (remember those
brand new $1 FPDW Fast-Metered Progressives at the Atlantis when it
first opened the Oyster Bar and Sky Terrace?). I think this is
another promotional decision very deliberately made by the
management of the SL.
3) This play is worth about $400 per day plus full RFB in a
suite----A borderline case for the pros. I don't envision pros
flying in from all over just to take advantage of this; and if I'm
wrong, my post at vpFREE will alert them to the possibility that
they may not have a monopoly over these machines when they arrive.
4) I am not a pro (nor was I meant to be/ Am an attendant lord,
one that will do/ To swell a progressive, start a scene or
two/....QOC: eat your heart out), but I don't loathe them; indeed, I
sort of admire them: "it's a hard way to make an easy
living", "anyone who can make money playing video poker can make a
lot more money doing something else", I certainly admire Royal Cat.
Pros need to make a living too, so if $50 an hour plus room and
board minus RT airfare and w2-g's is attractive to you, come on
down! (QOC=Queen Of Comps)
5) I recall the fuss our members had this summer over the $1
FPDW at the Rainbow Club, including the open plea for QOC to
adjudicate the case, and this reinforced my trust in our esteemed
Administrator's foresight in promoting a "sunshine policy" regarding
good vp opportunities.
6) As mentioned in (2) above, the SL didn't just "happen" to
install these machines, or gave "everybody and his brother" $500
just to come visit. At the face of declining revenues, Reno casinos
first tried to tighten their games and comps, that didn't work; now
in desperation, they are going the other way; that's probably not
going to work either. Everybody says that in order for Reno to
survive, it has to "reinvent itself", but nobody knows what that
MEANS (how can you reinvent cheap food, cheap rooms, and a cheap
gamble?) Third quarter net profits for the casino mall in downtown
Reno was down by more than 60%; and the worst is yet to come, with
inclement weather (chain requirements, road closures) in almost
every weekend and in the Holidays, the fourth quarter may very well
show a net loss. I predicted the closures of the Sundowner, the
Fitzgerald's, the Siena, and the stillbirth of the Golden Phoenix;
but that is not going to be enough. The SL, being jointly owned by
the Mandalay Bay Group and the El Dorado, may not have the stomach
to endure a continuous decline with no end in sight. The current
situation is simply not sustainable. And if one of the three casinos
in this casino mall is going to be closed, it will have to be the
SL. So once again, come on down, while the good times last.

Am I being too gloomy or just being realistic? Make no mistake about
this: my relationship with the casinos is definitely not symbiotic;
I am a parasite, but I am a considerate, non-virulent parasite. It
does me no good to intentionally hurt my host without a huge gain in
return, and I certainly will not kill my host. The problem here of
course is not Reno, but the proliferation of uncontrolled,
unregulated, and untaxed Indian casinos in California. When
California voters approved the Constitutional Amendment (Proposition
1A) in 2000, the common consensus was that "let the Indians have
their casinos, as long as they don't build one in MY neighborhood".
Well, there is one in my neighborhood now (Thunder Valley) that is
taking $700 million dollars from my community (instead of from
whales from Singapore or farmers from Iowa) and returning less than
10% of that in the form of low wage service-oriented jobs. The
impacts are predictable: lower property values, higher crime rates,
higher bankruptcy rates, and higher divorce rates. It will take
decades for the residents here to learn how to live near and with
the casinos. In the meantime, my hosts in Northern Nevada are being
strangulated. To this parasite at least, this is a matter of great
despair.

I will be delighted if the above generates further discussions, in
public, or in private, concerning the posting of good games in
general, and in particular the game in question, as well as the
future of Reno, and the proliferation of Native American gaming in
California and in other States.

L. Wluiki

Anyhow, this was a most enlightening post, and I've never noticed pros in
Reno, maybe it takes $1 denoms of Full-Pay to lure them to this sleepy

berg,

we'll see. My eyes will open a little wider this next trip.

There are more than a handfull of pros in Reno. In the past years they
weren't as
numerous as in LV and they seemed to not pounce on the medium to good
opportunities that popped up. They generally waited for stronger plays
before they
came out in numbers. There was even one perhaps two "formal" teams in Reno
at one time....but they seem to have declined in step with opportunities.

Keep an eye out for the red-head :slight_smile:

Yes, the 60% profit decrease seems like a lot, I guess I never imagined a
casino of such stature actually going out-of-business. Phoenix- yes- I've

gone

there to escape the crowds at Silver at times, I can sense the death

throes. At

least the Silver is trying.

60% does seem like a lot of business to lose! I haven't been there much
these past months so can't make a good judgement based on observation.

G'luck
Gamb00lin F00l(s)

···

Mark <mark_my_words_again@yahoo.com> wrote:

They were reported MIA yesterday in "DataBase Updates/News"
and on the Silver Legacy DataBase page.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 25 Dec 2003 at 21:46, Mark wrote:

I'll be at SL next week and I'm sure these new TITO's will make there
way into my trip report. I spent a chunk of each previous trip there on
those .25 FPDW progressives (are they still there?).

I've been intending to invite some discussion of vpFREE's
SUNSHINE POLICY, so I'm glad that lwluiki has reopened the
topic.

···

On 25 Dec 2003 at 13:52, lwluiki wrote:

After I posted about the $1 TITO FPDW machines at the Reno Silver
Legacy (message #24298), I received several private emails regarding the
merits in making public such a high profit play. The common concern
seems to be the worry that the pros/vultures will decent upon the SL and
kill it immediately. The following is an open reply to what I considered
to be just criticism:

            ****************

"SUNSHINE POLICY: It is vpFREE's policy to share ALL known
positive VP plays with the membership, and to record the
information in the DataBase."

            ****************

Here's some of my thoughts on reporting "good plays":

I admire video poker pros (and serious recreational players)
and wish them well, but I believe they are very
short-sighted when they try to hide good play situations.
Attempting to hide a play risks having it die because of
inactivity or unwise play by the discoverers, without ever
having tested its viability in a wider market.

IMO, we should primarily be interested in promoting and
preserving good video poker situations that can survive
and prosper in an open market environment. If a casino
introduces a good play, we should help them get the word out
to a wide audience and let the play survive or die in the
open marketplace.

Of course, video poker's salvation continues to be the
education of the masses to demand good video poker games
while playing them poorly, and for casinos to expand the
video poker market by offering good machines and accepting
the small percentage of advantage players as "loss leaders".

Discussion/comments are welcomed/encouraged on this subject.

vpFREE Administrator

snip ...And I will also say the slot supervisor was
constantly coming over and talking to me after I hit the dueces and

was

watching me play. He made a comment about how fast I was playing

and I was

basically unable to use my strategy card at all because I was being

watched.

Once when I held quads instead of holding two deuces and going for

4 deauces

he made a comment about why didnt I go for the deuces again? I

just said

"I don't know - didn't feel like it this time I guess."

Tonight at SL, I spotted a local woman, semi pro, playing two
machines at a fast clip, wonder what that sup's thinking now.

As far as revealing info on good plays, my suggestion is keep it
vague, make people work for the prize. That might keep pros from
coming in specifically for a play and give a bonus to the ones who
were coming in regardless.

I guess I missed those Atlantis Deuces and i was there opening
weekend. Were they in the same machines as the 9/6 progs?
stu

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, sabyl <sabyl@s...> wrote:

Your life, your call, post what you will and bag those that tell

you not to.

I cannot believe someone would have the utter gall to e-mail you

and

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Liedel" <naliedel@e...> wrote:

chastise you about it.

************************************

Perhaps I should point out that none of the members who wrote me
claimed that they knew about this play _before_ reading my post, so
it is impossible to establish any actual harm my post did to them;
on the other hand, any potential harm may be in whole or in part
balanced by the info gained in reading the post. In fact, a
particularly fair-minded member _both_ scolded me and thanked me at
the same time. The exchanges were very civil, really.

L.Wluiki

vp1000mph wrote:

As far as revealing info on good plays, my suggestion is keep it
vague, make people work for the prize. That might keep pros from
coming in specifically for a play and give a bonus to the ones who
were coming in regardless.

I think the professor's just revealed the "A" answer on this topic.
Thanks, stu!

- H.

vp_FREE wrote:

            ****************

"SUNSHINE POLICY: It is vpFREE's policy to share ALL known
positive VP plays with the membership, and to record the
information in the DataBase."

            ****************

Here's some of my thoughts on reporting "good plays":

I admire video poker pros (and serious recreational players)
and wish them well, but I believe they are very
short-sighted when they try to hide good play situations.
Attempting to hide a play risks having it die because of
inactivity or unwise play by the discoverers, without ever
having tested its viability in a wider market.

I understand your point.

But when a $1+ play pops up with an exceptional ER and a razor's edge
hold relative to anything else in the casino, then it's a no-brainer
that the casino doesn't grasp what it's placed on the floor or else
what type of player is going to give heaviest play.

It's simple common sense that you keep the play low-profile. This
won't keep the play a secret forever, but will definitely extend it.

···

------

Of course, maybe the $1 FPDW play in Reno which has been lightly
bandied about for several months now yet doesn't appear to be in any
jeopardy of overplay will be the example that shoots me down.
However, I think the key variable is that, indeed, they haven't
garnered heavy play.

If the seats start filling up regularly I don't think it'll have the
type of positive consequences alluded to in the vpFREE policy here.
That counts on the "plunker" factor - unskilled play that is the bread
and butter of the casino when it comes to vp.

At the quarter level the plunker to skilled player ratio is very high
and can frequently sustain the highest return plays. However, at $1+,
you start talking about serious risk and the plunkers thin out. The
predominant play on a strong $1 game comes from skilled players --
that's particularly the case when the volume of play increases.

Anyone who thinks heavy action by what appear to be reasonably skilled
players (and I'm not talking about Dancer-like 2-machine wonders) on
low edge machines is going to bring smiles to the casino hasn't done
the math on the player cashback/comp cost. The casino may accept a
lower hold in favor of higher volume play, but an overall hold of 1/2%
or less is definitely not what the casino has in mind.

------

We all can recognize a play that's so strong that we can't imagine
finding it anywhere else. That's the type of play that deserves a
little more respect than a more common opportunity -- the type that
gets discussed in a manner akin to, well, frat boys talking about a
co-ed of "easy virtue" (if it makes you feel better, do some type of
role-reversal on that one :).

Oh ... and when it comes to a casion screw-up that creates a VERY
exceptional play, at least temporarily, only an idiot would rant
loudly about it.

IMO, we should primarily be interested in promoting and
preserving good video poker situations that can survive
and prosper in an open market environment.

Of course, video poker's salvation continues to be the
education of the masses to demand good video poker games
while playing them poorly, and for casinos to expand the
video poker market by offering good machines and accepting
the small percentage of advantage players as "loss leaders".

That's a sentiment I can align myself with, but there are several
types of "open market" environments. The casino industry isn't one
that represents a perfectly competitive market but instead is best
described as an oligopoly -- it's made up of players who, while not
operating in the manner of a monopoly, compete in a manner where the
customer is considered to be a bigger threat than a competitor.

A key oligopolistic market characteristic is that there's a strong
barrier to entry of new firms, and those that are successful are often
gobbled up or run out of business by the largest players in the market
(sound at least a bit familar?).

I apologize for the shameless economics lesson here, but the "perfect
commpetition" model that would support an argument for fully free
exchange of information isn't applicable.

- Harry