vpFREE2 Forums

where can i determine payback percentage of multistrike games?

Cogno Scienti wrote:

I wanted to wait until we agreed on the 0.5%, since your thesis was
that the 0.25% additional ER made up for the top jackpot. I guess
it only makes up for half of it.

We agreed that "variance" isn't sufficient to identify risk until
many cycles of the top jackpot. With 1.5% of the return having a
cycle 2x, 4x, and 8x single line, the additional ER is not
sufficient to compensate an unlucky run even in a million hands.

In the medium term, it's not only the top jackpot. Quads on the top
three lines count for almost 4.5% of the return and dry spells will
last 2x, 4x, and 8x longer.

So what are we trying to establish? I think people are interested
in three things: the ER, which we all agree on; the short-term
bankroll requirements (how much do I need to bring to the casino to
play n hands); and the long-term risk (how likely is it I'll go
broke or die before hitting my ER).

For short-term bankroll requirements it would probably be easiest
to run simulations. The added length of each cycle is ameliorated
somewhat by the regression to the mean in the shorter cycles that
occur simultaneously. I'm guessing it's about the same as a
single-line game of the same total wager, which I think was your
point in the first place.

For long-term risk, the longest cycle is 8x the single-line game,
so I'm asserting that by some measure the game is 8x worse than
single line in that respect. The added ER does make up for part of
it, so maybe it's only 4x worse than single line. But denomination
is irrelevant to this calculation, so at least with respect to
long-term risk MS is significantly riskier than a single-line game
of the same total wager.

Cogno

I don't want you to think I don't have a healthy respect for the long-tailed risk associated with high-paying hands played infrequently on the upper Levels. However, I believe you under appreciate just how much other game aspects counter that risk.

I noted the higher return, and my point is that it's not essential that that return entirely counterbalance the 4th Level royal to meaningfully reduce the player downside risk.

One means by which to re-express variance in a manner that puts MS and single line play on a more equal footing would be to reduce the top line RF payout to a value that gives play an ER equal to single line play. (Anything paid over and above that represents adequate return for added variance ... just in the same way that you wouldn't cite added variance derived from the climb of a progressive as undesirable risk.)

Using my calculator (which I sent you a copy of), cutting the 4th Level RF in half results in a game EV of 99.539%. The adjusted variance is 14.9.

That's a substantial reduction in variance from single line play and strongly suggests that, as I indicated before, the higher overall hit frequency and reduced pay per hit as a consequence of playing 2 hands per play on average serve to greatly reduce play variance.

With that 99.539% of return, as you note, Level 4 quads are quite a force to be reckoned with, contributing 1.5% of game return and having a long cycle of 3400 plays. But, by the time one plays through 70K plays, things start moving into "long-term" territory.

The Level 3 RF, with 0.5% return, has a 160,000 play cycle. The Level 2, with similar return, 80,000 plays. No doubt that means that it will take a lot of play before you have strong confidence of being within 1% of ER. But I see a lot of reasons why play would approach +/-2% of ER as quickly, if not more quickly than single line play.

Bottom line, over short term and longer term play I anticipate that a player who has the bankroll to comfortably play single line play should find that MS play, at the same total wager per play, is also comfortable.

I don't know if VP for Winners includes the bankroll component for it's MS game. (My copy has been corrupted and I haven't sought a fix.) If it does, I would anticipate that session and overall numbers would back up my gut feeling here. I'm prepared to be mistaken.

Cogno,
I did a search on your tagline and multistrike. Couldn't find the post from a few years ago (You have a LOT of posts:-).
I remember your hypothesis of possible advantage of MS 3 line play.
Are you good with 3 line play because it looks like 4th line adds .25%-.50% to E.V.?

The dialogue with VPWIZ is most interesting and hope it continues with resolution of level 4 impact on E.R.

Dave (Multistrike crackhead) in Boston

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@...> wrote:

H,

I wanted to wait until we agreed on the 0.5%, since your thesis was that the
0.25% additional ER made up for the top jackpot. I guess it only makes up
for half of it.

We agreed that "variance" isn't sufficient to identify risk until many
cycles of the top jackpot. With 1.5% of the return having a cycle 2x, 4x,
and 8x single line, the additional ER is not sufficient to compensate an
unlucky run even in a million hands.

In the medium term, it's not only the top jackpot. Quads on the top three
lines count for almost 4.5% of the return and dry spells will last 2x, 4x,
and 8x longer.

So what are we trying to establish? I think people are interested in three
things: the ER, which we all agree on; the short-term bankroll requirements
(how much do I need to bring to the casino to play n hands); and the
long-term risk (how likely is it I'll go broke or die before hitting my ER).

For short-term bankroll requirements it would probably be easiest to run
simulations. The added length of each cycle is ameliorated somewhat by the
regression to the mean in the shorter cycles that occur simultaneously. I'm
guessing it's about the same as a single-line game of the same total wager,
which I think was your point in the first place.

For long-term risk, the longest cycle is 8x the single-line game, so I'm
asserting that by some measure the game is 8x worse than single line in that
respect. The added ER does make up for part of it, so maybe it's only 4x
worse than single line. But denomination is irrelevant to this calculation,
so at least with respect to long-term risk MS is significantly riskier than
a single-line game of the same total wager.

Cogno

> -----Original Message-----
> From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf
> Of vp_wiz
> Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:45 PM
> To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [vpFREE] Re: where can i determine payback percentage of
> multistrike games?
>
> Cogno Scienti wrote:
> > I hesitate to disagree with your math again, but I come up with 0.5%
> > for the top (and other) line royals.
>
> Absolutely. 2% overall RF return, evenly divided over each Level.
> Call it a fat finger/fat brain slip in a post that was entered in near
> "stream of consciousness" mode.
>
> <Now, I have to ask: Is that slip the only post content meriting
> reply? Frankly, it was little more significant than noting a dropped
> semi-colon.>
>
> Notwithstanding the slip. the key points of the post stand: The top
> line RF accounts for the lion share of game variance, but the is
> significantly offset (obviously not entirely) by the ER improvement of
> MS vs single line play. Other MS factors … higher hit frequency,
> lower average payout per hit … clearly serve to lessen variance.
>
> As an aside, I'm not discounting Jean Scott's reported adverse MS
> experience whatsoever. But do attribute it to the sour play experience
> that can be encountered in any moderate variance game as the exception,
> rather than suggestive of a harsher expectation overall.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi Dave. I don't remember putting forth that hypothesis.

Cogno

···

-----Original Message-----
From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On Behalf
Of Dave
Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 6:26 PM
To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vpFREE] Re: where can i determine payback percentage of
multistrike games?

Cogno,
I did a search on your tagline and multistrike. Couldn't find the post
from a few years ago (You have a LOT of posts:-).
I remember your hypothesis of possible advantage of MS 3 line play.
Are you good with 3 line play because it looks like 4th line adds .25%-
.50% to E.V.?

The dialogue with VPWIZ is most interesting and hope it continues with
resolution of level 4 impact on E.R.

Dave (Multistrike crackhead) in Boston

— In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Cogno Scienti" <cognoscienti@…>
wrote:
>
> H,
>
> I wanted to wait until we agreed on the 0.5%, since your thesis was
that the
> 0.25% additional ER made up for the top jackpot. I guess it only
makes up
> for half of it.
>
> We agreed that "variance" isn't sufficient to identify risk until
many
> cycles of the top jackpot. With 1.5% of the return having a cycle 2x,
4x,
> and 8x single line, the additional ER is not sufficient to compensate
an
> unlucky run even in a million hands.
>
> In the medium term, it's not only the top jackpot. Quads on the top
three
> lines count for almost 4.5% of the return and dry spells will last
2x, 4x,
> and 8x longer.
>
> So what are we trying to establish? I think people are interested in
three
> things: the ER, which we all agree on; the short-term bankroll
requirements
> (how much do I need to bring to the casino to play n hands); and the
> long-term risk (how likely is it I'll go broke or die before hitting
my ER).
>
> For short-term bankroll requirements it would probably be easiest to
run
> simulations. The added length of each cycle is ameliorated somewhat
by the
> regression to the mean in the shorter cycles that occur
simultaneously. I'm
> guessing it's about the same as a single-line game of the same total
wager,
> which I think was your point in the first place.
>
> For long-term risk, the longest cycle is 8x the single-line game, so
I'm
> asserting that by some measure the game is 8x worse than single line
in that
> respect. The added ER does make up for part of it, so maybe it's only
4x
> worse than single line. But denomination is irrelevant to this
calculation,
> so at least with respect to long-term risk MS is significantly
riskier than
> a single-line game of the same total wager.
>
> Cogno
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vpF…@…com] On
Behalf
> > Of vp_wiz
> > Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2010 12:45 PM
> > To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [vpFREE] Re: where can i determine payback percentage of
> > multistrike games?
> >
> > Cogno Scienti wrote:
> > > I hesitate to disagree with your math again, but I come up with
0.5%
> > > for the top (and other) line royals.
> >
> > Absolutely. 2% overall RF return, evenly divided over each Level.
> > Call it a fat finger/fat brain slip in a post that was entered in
near
> > "stream of consciousness" mode.
> >
> > <Now, I have to ask: Is that slip the only post content meriting
> > reply? Frankly, it was little more significant than noting a
dropped
> > semi-colon.>
> >
> > Notwithstanding the slip. the key points of the post stand: The
top
> > line RF accounts for the lion share of game variance, but the is
> > significantly offset (obviously not entirely) by the ER improvement
of
> > MS vs single line play. Other MS factors … higher hit frequency,
> > lower average payout per hit … clearly serve to lessen variance.
> >
> > As an aside, I'm not discounting Jean Scott's reported adverse MS
> > experience whatsoever. But do attribute it to the sour play
experience
> > that can be encountered in any moderate variance game as the
exception,
> > rather than suggestive of a harsher expectation overall.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

------------------------------------

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