vpFREE2 Forums

Question about bankroll

aaquad250 wrote:

> My point is that this is a theoretical discussion and probably
doesn't
> help a short-term player calculate a session bankroll. I don't
have a
> good solution, I just pray that when I play the short term
volatility
> goes in the right direction!

just subtract out the return of quads or better:
9/6job (99.54-1.98-.55-5.91=91.1%) (-9%)

snip

That's what I'd do, and then in case I don't get my 'quota' of the other better-paying hands, I'd also generally knock it down a little further to an 85% ER to play it safe. This is what I would use for purposes of a long-distance overnight trip in which I wanted to be pretty-sure I'd have enough bankroll before leaving. I haven't tried to work out any figures as far as what percentage of time that would be an adequate figure to use; I've been busy with other things which are more important to me. But I'm pretty sure ... intuitively ... that using a low ER figure like 85% combined with a sufficient bankroll to play a trip-session of 4000 hands/day, which is what I usually aim for on most trips, that would certainly be good enough for me although I haven't gotten to the point that I even take that much with me because I've been going on short excusions to nearby casinos.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Gary" <gary@g...> wrote:

Bill Velek in reply to:

> just subtract out the return of quads or better:
> 9/6job (99.54-1.98-.55-5.91=91.1%) (-9%)

snip

That's what I'd do, and then in case I don't get my 'quota' of the
other better-paying hands, I'd also generally knock it down a little
further to an 85% ER to play it safe. This is what I would use for
purposes of a long-distance overnight trip in which I wanted to be
pretty-sure I'd have enough bankroll before leaving.

Yep, I imagine that would get you through the 7K-10K hands I consider
to be an overnight trip. Of course, about the time I see through 10K
hands of 9/6 JB with a 15% loss, I'm quite likely to slit my wrists
(or at least swear off vp all together).

My worse 8000 hand JB trip to date involved an 8% loss (with an early
escape the next morning lest I lose my hide). Maybe I've just been
lucky :). (DB, of course, is quite a different matter).

- Harry

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

Bill Velek in reply to:

> > just subtract out the return of quads or better:
> > 9/6job (99.54-1.98-.55-5.91=91.1%) (-9%)
>
> snip

> That's what I'd do, and then in case I don't get my 'quota' of

the

> other better-paying hands, I'd also generally knock it down a

little

> further to an 85% ER to play it safe. This is what I would use

for

> purposes of a long-distance overnight trip in which I wanted to

be

> pretty-sure I'd have enough bankroll before leaving.

Yep, I imagine that would get you through the 7K-10K hands I

consider

to be an overnight trip. Of course, about the time I see through

10K

hands of 9/6 JB with a 15% loss, I'm quite likely to slit my wrists
(or at least swear off vp all together).

My worse 8000 hand JB trip to date involved an 8% loss (with an

early

escape the next morning lest I lose my hide). Maybe I've just been
lucky :). (DB, of course, is quite a different matter).

- Harry

Ok, lets just split the difference and round it off even and call it
10%. How then do I turn this into a bankroll for a certain number
of hands? (again lets just round it off even and say 10,000 hands)

DWK

deuceswild1000 wrote:

Ok, lets just split the difference and round it off even and call it
10%. How then do I turn this into a bankroll for a certain number
of hands? (again lets just round it off even and say 10,000 hands)

I'll answer this basic example but then I want to turn to the charts
in the VP Probabilities section at jazbo.com to see what might be some
reasonable loss allowances for a couple of games.

···

------

If you're looking at a trip where you want to allow sufficient trip
stake, the stake is simply:
Expected Coin-in x Worst Case Loss Allowance.

(You wouldn't expect me to turn tail on terminology now and talk
"bankroll", would you? :slight_smile: But I'll note it's the case that Jazbo does
refer to "ending bankrolls", i.e. trip win/loss, as well as "long term
bankrolls" on his website.)

So, if we're talking 10,000 hands of $.25 vp, and a worst case 10%
loss allowance, then it's $12500 x 10% = $1250.

------------------------

Ok. Let me explore Jazbo's charts on his website to strengthen this
loss allowance. This is going to get a little entailed, but not
overly complicated.

In this discussion I'll reflect that in preparing myself for a trip
I'm comfortable staking myself to see my play through 95% of the time.
I can deal with a short trip 1 out of 20 times.

If we had used that 8% worst case in the calculation above, then the
loss allowance would be $1000. I'm suggesting something less than
this would be appropriate. Let's see how Jazbo's numbers compare.

--> If you don't want to walk through a lengthy dissection of Jazbo's
charts and wish to push right to the answer, skip past the next two
sections (to the next series of x's).

xxxxxxxxxx

Jazbo has does a decent review of VP Probabilities which are a useful
reference. But let me state right off the bat that his charts deal
with the expected ending loss of a trip.

But there's little doubt that at some point in most trips your loss
position will exceed your ending loss. That means that after looking
at Jazbo's work, we'll need to pad any conclusions from his numbers.
Keep this in MIND.

The chart that is of greatest use is the very last one on his
Probabilities page: Cumulative Probabilities - 5000 hands.

That chart shows the distribution of expected Ending Bankroll (i.e.
trip win/loss), expressed as number of bets.

Examination shows that on 5000 hands, there's roughly a 99% certainty
that losses won't exceed 500 bets - in other words a 10% loss. The
exception to this is 10/7 DB, where similar confidence involves a 700
bet loss (14%).

When we pare back the confidence that the trip stake will see us
through 95% of trips of 5000 JB hands, the appropriate loss allowance
looks to be about 300 bets, or a 6% loss. ($375 on a quarter game)

(It's interesting to note that of all the games noted (including the
higher return games of PE, 10/7 DB, & FPDW), at 5000 hands JB permits
for the smallest loss allowance. That's simply because for JB, aside
from the RF, the highest paying hand is a quad, paying 25 bets. The
highest non-RF hands in the other games have much higher pays. This
makes the JB return excluding the RF much less variable.)

------

So, repeating myself for my own sake and others who may be Alheizmer's
impaired, for 5000 hands played it looks like 300 bets will see us
through 95% of our JB play. What does that say about a 10000 hand trip?

Getting a decent guesstimate on this becomes a little more tricky
using the charts on Jazbo's website because he doesn't display 10000
hands in this manner. You'll notice that the 5000 hand chart is
labelled "Cumulative Percentage" (you do have his website open in a
separate window now, right?). Any point on it represents the
probability that the trip loss didn't exceed the corresponding amount.

That chart was built up from data that he plots out on a related chart
labelled "Probability Distribution", which for 5000 hands is the chart
immediately above. This chart displays the probability of any given
single loss.

For example, for JB, we see that the most probable loss is about 125
bets (2.5% loss), with a .26% likelihood. Note that this is the
approximate expected JB loss when you simply subtract out the RF from
the total game ER.

To extrapolate from the 6% loss allowance for 5000 hands to one for
10000 hands, what we might do (and this is very "back of the envelope"
is compare a point on the 5000 hand Prob Dist'n chart to a comparable
point on the 10000 hand chart to see how the chart has shifted. (And
have I confused the hell out of you yet, or do you still have your
bearings?)

I'm not going to walk through the steps of my eyeball comparison
because this post is already becoming unwieldy. But ...

xxxxxxxxxxxx

For 10000 hands the corresponding trip loss on 95% of trips would fall
around 4%, or $500 playing $.25 9/6 JB. But this is the expected
ending loss. Most trips will produce a greater loss somewhere in the
middle than the ending loss.

If we pad this loss accordingly, something more like 5% or 6% would
very likely see a player through the entire planned play 95% of the
time. And this is very consistent with my experience.

I'd say that a player expecting a trip of 10000 9/6 JB hands would be
pretty well prepared on a stake of $700. That's not to say that an 8%
stake ($1000) wouldn't hurt to provide practically complete assurance.

------

Hopefully this work-up serves to give a concrete loss allowance for
play that you can have some confidence in.

Additionally it provides the basis from which, using Jazbo's charts,
you can work up an allowance for a JB trip of another number of
expected hands AND another game as well.

- Harry

Forgive my cross posting without permission, but I think an old
message from Effen Dolts is of interest. He has written software
that is tailor made to evalulate trip stakes. It is not commercially
available, but I have long thought that it would be a great feature
to add to Winpoker or FVP. I know it would motivate me to buy an
upgrade. He has graciously shared outputs from his program for
several games. Below is his post from ACVPP. It shows that after
8192 hands of 9/6 JB you have a 1% chance of being 581 units ($726 at
quarters) or more behind. You actually have a slightly higher than
1% chance of losing a $726 trip stake because some sequences include
a comeback from >$726 behind to less than $726 behind.

AJ

···

*****************************************************************

The simulations are okay, but I find it more useful to calculate the
distributions similar to the ones that Jazbo has on www.jazbo.com.
The math is very simple, but it is tricky to get a program that is
fast and accurate for large numbers of hands. My tables are in units
of bets ($1.25 for quarters, etc.) and I get a median loss of 256
bets (1280 coins) after 32,768 hands. The 20 and 80 percentiles are
just a bit narrower than the Std. Dev. There is a decent skew in the
20/80 points relative to the median, -591 vs. +737, but the center of
the distribution becomes more symmetrical with larger numbers of
hands played.

BTW, I think if you ran your JoB simulation again, you would get a
larger variance. JoB should be comparable to Pickem.

Effen

JACKS OR BETTER
+-------------+------------------------------------------------------+

Percentile | 1% 5% 10% 20% 50% 80% 90% 95% 99%|

+-------------+------------------------------------------------------+

2 Hands | -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 2 4 9|
4 Hands | -3 -3 -3 -3 -1 2 4 6 19|
8 Hands | -7 -6 -5 -4 -1 3 6 8 23|
16 Hands | -12 -9 -8 -6 -2 4 8 14 27|
32 Hands | -19 -15 -12 -9 -3 6 13 20 36|
64 Hands | -29 -23 -19 -14 -4 10 19 27 47|
128 Hands | -44 -34 -29 -21 -5 14 26 37 63|
256 Hands | -68 -52 -44 -32 -8 19 36 51 92|
512 Hands | -103 -80 -66 -49 -14 25 48 70 751|
1024 Hands | -157 -121 -101 -76 -25 31 65 102 789|
2048 Hands | -241 -187 -157 -121 -47 37 95 257 828|
4096 Hands | -371 -292 -249 -195 -85 50 243 699 898|
8192 Hands | -581 -465 -401 -321 -152 162 600 750 1386|
16384 Hands | -924 -750 -653 -529 -235 396 668 1043 1633|
32768 Hands | -1488 -1219 -1062 -847 -256 481 938 1330 2147|
65536 Hands | -2400 -1945 -1664 -1276 -408 618 1214 1736 2785|

+-------------+------------------------------------------------------+

AJ wrote:

Below is his post from ACVPP. It shows that after 8192 hands of 9/6
JB you have a 1% chance of being 581 units ($726 at quarters) or
more behind. You actually have a slightly higher than 1% chance of
losing a $726 trip stake because some sequences include a comeback
from $726 behind to less than $726 behind.

Don't get the impression that I'm challenging anything in this post
because it's absolutely right on.

I'd find it interesting to know what percentage of people actually
fund (or allow for) a 1% risk stake for a trip. I'd expect it to be
very low. (I sometimes have the sense that most people tend to fund a
10% risk stake, relative to their hoped for level of play :slight_smile:

trip loss potential at some point in play is MUCH higher (possibly
twice as high, i.e. 2% or more), but I have absolutely no way of
knowing and little confidence in this expectation.

- Harry

···

From my play, I stongly expect that the risk of exceeding the 1% max

In addition to having a link to Jeff Lotspiech's Video Poker Page in
vpFREE Links, I've just added his Gambler's Ruin" Calculator to
the "Bankroll Links" page:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Bank.htm

<a href="http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Bank.htm">
http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Bank.htm</a>

vpFREE Administrator

···

On 8 Dec 2003 at 8:32, lwluiki wrote:

By the way, there is a simple and yet powerful relationship between
bankroll and risk of ruin (RoR), and you can use this relationship to
extend the Cindy Liu and Lotspiech calculators listed at the vpFREE
links:

Thank you, Harry, AJ, and Effen. My guesstimate of 15% was very seat of the pants, based on only of couple of dry spells without any of the top three hands, and no tracking of whether my Full-Houses and below were, at the same time, below average frequency; I just assumed that they could be, which is certainly possible. How long those streaks last, no one knows; theorecticaly ... forever, but statistically it looks like Jazbo and Effen has much more valuable estimates based on mathematical probability. My thoughts of 15% based on 4,000 hands/day in full-coin quarters would be a loss allowance of $750.00, which in reality I would never actually tolerate in my usual gambling which is typically a day trip or over-nighter to Tunica (just a few hours drive for me), as opposed to an expensive planned trip to Vegas, including airfare, etc. I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but in retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a $2,250 loss over 3 days, even in Vegas. I'd probably take maybe a thousand with me, and start crying like a baby as I got down to my last couple hundred. :wink:

Fortunately, as can be seen immediately below, this is _VERY_ unlikely to happen to me if I use proper strategy and don't make any mistakes.

Harry Porter wrote:

AJ wrote:
> Below is his post from ACVPP. It shows that after 8192 hands of 9/6
> JB you have a 1% chance of being 581 units ($726 at quarters) or
> more behind. You actually have a slightly higher than 1% chance of
> losing a $726 trip stake because some sequences include a comeback
> from $726 behind to less than $726 behind.

Of course, that is for only slightly more than 8000 hands, and I normally plan on 4000 hands/day, so for a 3-day trip full of play, I'd need to allow for 12,000 hands ... but if my losses amount to $726.00 after 8000 hands, I'm not sure how eager I would be to continue play anyway.

snip the rest of a very helpful post

Thanks again.

Bill Velek

Thanks for the good news.
Is the Annual BARGE "Mass Blackjack Barring" at the Barbary Coast
still going strong?

(For those not familiar with this wonderful BARGE (Big August
Rec.Gambling Excursion) tradition: Each year, members of BARGE go
and terrorize the poor blakjack pit bosses at the Barbary Coast,
competing to get barred in the shortest possible time for card
counting. The bosses at the Coast are known to draw lots the day
before to determine who get to suffer through the shift in question.
But that was years ago. See _Knock-Out Blackjack by Vancura and
Fuchs, Isochoric Publishing, 1996_).

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Steve Jacobs <jacobs@x> wrote:

On Monday 08 December 2003 01:32 am, lwluiki wrote:
>
> Jazbo's website hasn't changed in a couple of years, does anyone
> know how he's doing lately?

I saw Jazbo at BARGE in August. He is doing fine, and seemed well
and very happy.

Bill Velek wrote:

I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but in
retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a $2,250
loss over 3 days, even in Vegas. I'd probably take maybe a
thousand with me, and start crying like a baby as I got down to my
last couple hundred. :wink:

I don't think you're alone, Bill, in having a stomach that's a little
weaker than the play that you have your heart set on.

On a 3 night trip (a bit more than 3 days of play), I generally target
around 25000 hands (fewer base hands if multiplay is included). It's
often the case that my stamina holds out for that. (Interestingly
enough when Bev's along on the trip, what she adds in her play is
usually entirely offset by my own reduced play. I imagine a certain
conservation of "stamina" is at work :).

I can't say I allow for the roughly 5% loss allowance that would be
implicit in a 5% risk trip stake. 4% would more often be the case,
and I prepare myself for a trip that might potentially be cut short by
30% -- actually, more often by a reduced loss tolerance as opposed to
fully killing my stake.

Given Bill's and my experience, you can see why I have cause to wonder
just what proportion of players stake themselves for 1% risk in their
play.

- Harry

(snip)..My thoughts of 15% based on 4,000 hands/day in full-coin
quarters would be a loss allowance of $750.00, which in reality I
would
never actually tolerate in my usual gambling which is typically a day
trip or over-nighter to Tunica (just a few hours drive for me), as
opposed to an expensive planned trip to Vegas, including airfare,
etc.
I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but in
retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a $2,250
loss
over 3 days, even in Vegas.

.....................................................................
Bill, may I, with due respect, point out that you need not stomach a
$2,250 loss, but only a $1,299 ( $750 * square root 3) loss over 3
days.
This "bankroll" thread started when I suggested to member "gms5997"
to increase her short term bankroll by the factor (square 2) to
accommodate her husband playing on the same bankroll. The same
mathematical principle of Risk = (more or less) Standard Variation =
Square root of Variance applies here also.

L. Wluiki

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

Quite an interesting looking program. Thanks, Tom and Jeff..

I'm playing with it right now :wink:

Cheers.

Bill Velek

vp_FREE wrote:

snip

... I've just added his Gambler's Ruin" Calculator to
the "Bankroll Links" page:

http://www.west-point.org/users/usma1955/20228/VP/Bank.htm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lwluiki wrote:

> (snip)..My thoughts of 15% based on 4,000 hands/day in full-coin
> quarters would be a loss allowance of $750.00, which in reality I
> would never actually tolerate in my usual gambling which is typically
> a day trip or over-nighter to Tunica (just a few hours drive for me),
> as opposed to an expensive planned trip to Vegas, including airfare,
> etc. I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but
> in retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a
> $2,250 loss over 3 days, even in Vegas.

.....................................................................
Bill, may I, with due respect, point out that you need not stomach a
$2,250 loss, but only a $1,299 ( $750 * square root 3) loss over 3
days. This "bankroll" thread started when I suggested to member
"gms5997" to increase her short term bankroll by the factor (square
2) to accommodate her husband playing on the same bankroll. The same
mathematical principle of Risk = (more or less) Standard Variation =
Square root of Variance applies here also.

L. Wluiki

Assuming you're correct (I won't take the time to do any RoR calcs),
you've just shown that the 'seat of the pants' guesstimate that I was
using (just chopping off the 3 top-lines -- ROY, STFL, and QUADS -- and
slightly reducing, arbitrarily, the other hands a couple of percent) is
far too drastic a step in comparison with actual RoR stats. I can see
now that it would really be better to take the time and sit down and do
things right, even when not so important such as when I'm just
guesstimating for myself for a relatively unimportant occasion like a
single day-trip. Thanks.

Cheers.

Bill Velek

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:

Nope, that tradition only lasted for the first few years of BARGE.

···

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 12:59 am, lwluiki wrote:

Thanks for the good news.
Is the Annual BARGE "Mass Blackjack Barring" at the Barbary Coast
still going strong?

Harry,

Great minds think alike? Don Schlesenger (sp?) came up with some
kind of 2X adjustment to allow for comebacks in sizing trip bankrolls
for blackjack play. I think he addresses this in "Blackjack
Attack". If you like math and gambling, it is an interesting book
even if you don't play blackjack. I don't know how well this
adjustment applies to a game with much higher payoffs like Video
poker. For some reason, Effen seems to find himself way off the left
end of his own charts on a fairly regular basis.

AJ

···

From my play, I stongly expect that the risk of exceeding the 1% max
trip loss potential at some point in play is MUCH higher (possibly
twice as high, i.e. 2% or more), but I have absolutely no way of
knowing and little confidence in this expectation.

- Harry

Actually, I think that the answer is somewhere in between for
most "trip" lengths. A "bad" trip will almost never contain a royal,
so the loss associated with the lack of royal is directly
proportional to hands played. The results from lesser hands,
ignoring the royal, look much more like a normal distribution. When
you look at numbers in Effen's table, the 1% loss figures increase by
closer to sqrt(2.5) than sqrt(2) for a doubling of hands played.

AJ

(snip)..My thoughts of 15% based on 4,000 hands/day in full-coin
quarters would be a loss allowance of $750.00, which in reality I
would
never actually tolerate in my usual gambling which is typically a

day

trip or over-nighter to Tunica (just a few hours drive for me), as
opposed to an expensive planned trip to Vegas, including airfare,
etc.
I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but in
retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a $2,250
loss
over 3 days, even in Vegas.

....................................................................

.

Bill, may I, with due respect, point out that you need not stomach

a

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "lwluiki" <lwluiki@a...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Bill Velek <billvelek@a...> wrote:
$2,250 loss, but only a $1,299 ( $750 * square root 3) loss over 3
days.
This "bankroll" thread started when I suggested to member "gms5997"
to increase her short term bankroll by the factor (square 2) to
accommodate her husband playing on the same bankroll. The same
mathematical principle of Risk = (more or less) Standard Variation

=

Square root of Variance applies here also.

L. Wluiki

Wow - last time out for 3 nights to vegas we lost over $1000.
I was definitely mad because that's over 12%+ of our bankroll gone in just
one short trip.
It would have been nice to hit the royal to nearly break it even but those
have been few and far between for us.
I still can't see how a $1000 royal every 5 trips or so is going to rebound
our bankroll with an average trip loss
of $400 per trip. The highest positive trip has recently been $400.

···

-----Original Message-----
  From: Harry Porter [mailto:harry.por…@…net]
  Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:05 AM
  To: vpFREE@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [vpFREE] Re: Question about bankroll

  Bill Velek wrote:
  > I will naturally take more with me to Vegas than to Tunica, but in
  > retrospect, I can see how I would never be able to stomach a $2,250
  > loss over 3 days, even in Vegas. I'd probably take maybe a
  > thousand with me, and start crying like a baby as I got down to my
  > last couple hundred. :wink:

  I don't think you're alone, Bill, in having a stomach that's a little
  weaker than the play that you have your heart set on.

  On a 3 night trip (a bit more than 3 days of play), I generally target
  around 25000 hands (fewer base hands if multiplay is included). It's
  often the case that my stamina holds out for that. (Interestingly
  enough when Bev's along on the trip, what she adds in her play is
  usually entirely offset by my own reduced play. I imagine a certain
  conservation of "stamina" is at work :).

  I can't say I allow for the roughly 5% loss allowance that would be
  implicit in a 5% risk trip stake. 4% would more often be the case,
  and I prepare myself for a trip that might potentially be cut short by
  30% -- actually, more often by a reduced loss tolerance as opposed to
  fully killing my stake.

  Given Bill's and my experience, you can see why I have cause to wonder
  just what proportion of players stake themselves for 1% risk in their
  play.

  - Harry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Is the Annual BARGE "Mass Blackjack Barring" at the Barbary Coast
> still going strong?

On 9 Dec 2003 at 6:10, Steve Jacobs replied:

Nope, that tradition only lasted for the first few years of BARGE.

On 9 Dec 2003 at 10:33, krallison416@aol.com replied:

Had dinner last August with a regular participant and the answer is
definitely a resounding 'YES."

As Steve replied, the mass efforts to get barred at BC haven't
happened in several years. Some smaller attempts may have
occurred, but this is no longer an unofficial BARGE event.

Incidentally, Steve Jacobs is a charter member of BARGE
(which started in 1991) and is the only person who has
attended every BARGE. He also won the first BARGE
no-limit holdem tournament, which is the signature event,
and at least one of the blackjack tournaments. I've attended
every BARGE since 1994.

vpFREE Administrator

···

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 12:59 am, lwluiki wrote:

Yes, the passage describing the BARGE event is very funny.

···

At 01:59 AM 12/9/2003, you wrote:

See _Knock-Out Blackjack by Vancura and
Fuchs, Isochoric Publishing, 1996_).

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Porter" <harry.porter@v...>
wrote:

I'd find it interesting to know what percentage of people actually
fund (or allow for) a 1% risk stake for a trip. I'd expect it to be
very low. (I sometimes have the sense that most people tend to

fund a

10% risk stake, relative to their hoped for level of play :slight_smile:

From my play, I stongly expect that the risk of exceeding the 1% max
trip loss potential at some point in play is MUCH higher (possibly
twice as high, i.e. 2% or more), but I have absolutely no way of
knowing and little confidence in this expectation.

Unlike blackjack, there isn't that much hope of coming back very
far in VP without a big hand. If you have a big hand, you are not
very likely to end up in the zeroth percentile of the final bankroll
distribution. If you play blackjack with constant bets, the bankroll
varies in a manner similar to a random walk with no bias, and you
can expect positive swings based on small hits. In VP, especially
games with a high drain, you are less likely to have significant
positive swings without hitting hands paying 100-1 or better.

The method I use to calculate final distributions permits me
me to calculate the worst-case easily. Instead of integrating to
the 1% point, I can just integrate until a suitably small number
(call it epsilon). As epsilon goes to zero, the probability that
there is any big winners in the last few hands goes to zero.

I ran a coin-toss model and a 9/6 JB game with epsilon = 0.01
and 0.001. The right-hand columns show the loss in percent.
this shows that you have a 0.01 chance of finishing worse than
0.455% behind after 262,144 hands of coin-toss, etc. The e=0.001
result is -0.603%, which is a sort of limit on how much you could
be stuck on the way. Almost nobody is going to be down more than
0.603% and come back all the way to finish with less than a
0.455% loss.

Final: Total Return 100.0%
Sum: 1.0000 EV: 1.0000 Hands: 1048576 Pay Lines: 2
Effen Dolts Video Poker Distribution Calculator
COIN TOSS, 0, 2
+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

Hands | 1% 5% 50% 95% 99% | e=0.010 | e=0.001 |

+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

262144 | -1192 -842 0 842 1192 | -0.455% | -0.603% |
1048576 | -2382 -1684 0 1684 2382 | -0.227% | -0.302% |

+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

Final: Total Return 99.5439%
Sum: 1.0000 EV: 0.9954 Hands: 1048576 Pay Lines: 10
Effen Dolts Video Poker Distribution Calculator
JACKS OR BETTER, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 25, 50, 800
+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

Hands | 1% 5% 50% 95% 99% | e=0.010 | e=0.001 |

+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

262144 | -5951 -4713 -1296 2711 4538 | -2.270% | -2.753% |
1048576 |-14780-11996 -4852 3378 60636 | -1.410% | -1.696% |

+------- +-------------------------------+---------+---------+

If I set epsilon to a very small value, I can get a hard limit.
For 16384 hands of JB, the e=0.01 point is -7.70%, for e=0.0001,
it is -9.16%, and for e=0.000001, it is -10.35%. You can see
that the 1 percentile loss is about two-thirds of the
one-in-a-million loss rate. For epsilon near zero, the loss
is less than 12.5%. It is basically impossible to ever be
stuck worse than 2000 bet units at any time during the 16,348
hands.

Effen