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Max Bet blunder 100 coins......

You're implying that it's always better to underbet Kelly than to
overbet it.

Yes, absolutely, according to the "Kelly System". Betting less than "Kelly optimal" results in less bankroll growth, but less risk, which is a healthy tradeoff.

How is that necessarily healthy?

Betting more than "Kelly optimal" results in less bankroll growth and even negative bankroll growth with more risk, which is reckless gambling. (Reckless to one's bankroll)

I haven't studied Kelly much in video poker, but in simpler games,
such as blackjack, which approximate a 50% chance of winning a bet
that pays even money, one has to bet double Kelly to reduce one's
bankroll growth to 0. I doubt that that's much different at video
poker.

If one's bankroll were $16,000, would it be better to
play 25� or $1?

Better to play quarters.

Why?

In fact, if you want my advice, I would not start playing a game unless I had double Kelly, then if I got ground down to Kelly (which works out to about a 10% chance), I would stop and find another game that I had double Kelly for. So, in other words, with $16,000, and if quarter and dollar FPDW are my only choices, I'd play quarter as long as my running bankroll remained above $4250 and below $34,000. At $34,000, I'd switch to dollar FPDW (yes, it's still available but rare, don't ask me were to find it, and there are even better games, don't ask) and play that as long as my running bankroll remained above $17,000. If my bankroll hit $17,000, I'd drop back down to quarters and try to build it back up to $34,000 again. Are you getting the general idea of how the "Kelly System" works? If not I highly recommend Poundstone's "Fortune's Formula" which is written in non-mathematical, everyday English for a general audience. It should be required reading in today's
economy.

In summary (of the "Kelly system"), never play a game for which you don't have at least the Kelly bankroll. And stop playing that game if your bankroll drops below the Kelly bankroll. Play any game you want for which you the Kelly bankroll or more. A game that puts you at the Kelly optimal is the hairy edge, you get maximum average bankroll growth, but it's a wild ride, probably wilder than you realize. Most Kelly players back off a bit from the hairy edge, to a position with less risk. You don't have to always bet the exact Kelly optimum to play the "Kelly system". You can underbet for less risk, but you never overbet.

Why not? You've stated that being more conservative than Kelly
indicates is good, but you haven't said why. What other value does
one get that more than compensates for not maximizing one's bankroll
growth? I suspect that you're incorporating factors that the Kelly
Criterion isn't designed to handle, such as living expenses or how
stressed fluctuating makes one feel. I'm too lazy to do the math, but
I'm confident that, in a vacuum, one's bankroll growth would be far
greater by playing $1 FPDW than quarters if one's bankroll were
$16,000.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

>By the way, for information purposes, the approximate kelly number for FPDW is 26/.0077 = about 3400. A while back, myself and others derived the exact number, but I don't recall it at the moment, but it's close. Assuming the 3400 number then:
>
>To play 5 coin nickel FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $850.
>To play 5 coin quarter FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $4250.
>To play 5 coin dollar FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $17,000.

>In summary (of the "Kelly system"), never play a game for which you don't have at least the Kelly bankroll. And stop playing that game if your bankroll drops below the Kelly bankroll. Play any game you want for which you have the Kelly bankroll or more. A game that puts you at the Kelly optimal is the hairy edge, you get maximum average bankroll growth, but it's a wild ride, probably wilder than you realize. Most Kelly players back off a bit from the hairy edge, to a position with less risk. You don't have to always bet the exact Kelly optimum to play the "Kelly system". You can underbet for less risk, but you never overbet.

Why not? You've stated that being more conservative than Kelly
indicates is good, but you haven't said why. What other value does
one get that more than compensates for not maximizing one's bankroll
growth?

Risk reduction. (It's also a very big part of Kelly and the part that many have screwed up, google "Long Term Capital Management" for example.)

I suspect that you're incorporating factors that the Kelly
Criterion isn't designed to handle, such as living expenses or how
stressed fluctuating makes one feel. I'm too lazy to do the math, but
I'm confident that, in a vacuum, one's bankroll growth would be far
greater by playing $1 FPDW than quarters if one's bankroll were
$16,000.

You might be right, in this particular case. There's a small area just to the right of the optimum Kelly bet where the average bankroll growth of dollar FPDW exceeds the average bankroll growth of quarter FPDW, so if you really know what you are doing and never make play mistakes and have checked the numbers and can't find a game inbetween such as $.50 FPDW, and are risk seeking, that might be mathematically valid.

By the way, the "Kelly System" easily incorporates "living expenses". You simply have to deduct an hourly wage from your hourly expectations, in other words, adjust your edge down, since you are shaving some off for "personal use" rather than bankroll growth. For example, if you're playing dollar FPDW at $38/hour but you're spending ("leaking") $19/hour out of your bankroll, your edge into your bankroll is no longer .77%, but has been reduced to about .39%. The Kelly bankroll for such a situation is now about 26/.0039 = 6667 bets.

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@...> wrote:

I'm probably phrasing it awkwardly, but the Kelly formula takes all
possible results, in terms of the portion of the original bankroll
that results, to their exponents and multiplies them. I'll simplify
your example by assuming that you have a 50.85% chance of winning a
bet that pays even money. The Kelly formula would therefore be:

(((B + 25)/B) ^ .5085) x (((B - 25)/B) ^ .4915)

where B = your original bankroll. That B which maximizes this formula
is the Kelly bankroll. With even money payoffs, the Kelly bankroll is
the bet divided by the advantage. In this case, $25 / 1.7% is $1471.
Blackjack has a somewhat higher variance than this, so the Kelly
bankroll might be around $1500 or $1600.

···

Sorry for the off-topic post, but:

How could I figure out the Kelly bankroll be for a blackjack game where I play with a 1.7% advantage with an average bet of $25/hand?

Thanks.

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "nightoftheiguana2000" <nightoftheiguana2000@...> wrote:

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Tom Robertson <madameguyon@> wrote:
> You're implying that it's always better to underbet Kelly than to
> overbet it.

Yes, absolutely, according to the "Kelly System". Betting less than "Kelly optimal" results in less bankroll growth, but less risk, which is a healthy tradeoff. Betting more than "Kelly optimal" results in less bankroll growth and even negative bankroll growth with more risk, which is reckless gambling. (Reckless to one's bankroll)

> If one's bankroll were $16,000, would it be better to
> play 25� or $1?

Better to play quarters. In fact, if you want my advice, I would not start playing a game unless I had double Kelly, then if I got ground down to Kelly (which works out to about a 10% chance), I would stop and find another game that I had double Kelly for. So, in other words, with $16,000, and if quarter and dollar FPDW are my only choices, I'd play quarter as long as my running bankroll remained above $4250 and below $34,000. At $34,000, I'd switch to dollar FPDW (yes, it's still available but rare, don't ask me were to find it, and there are even better games, don't ask) and play that as long as my running bankroll remained above $17,000. If my bankroll hit $17,000, I'd drop back down to quarters and try to build it back up to $34,000 again. Are you getting the general idea of how the "Kelly System" works? If not I highly recommend Poundstone's "Fortune's Formula" which is written in non-mathematical, everyday English for a general audience. It should be required reading in

today's economy.

In summary (of the "Kelly system"), never play a game for which you don't have at least the Kelly bankroll. And stop playing that game if your bankroll drops below the Kelly bankroll. Play any game you want for which you the Kelly bankroll or more. A game that puts you at the Kelly optimal is the hairy edge, you get maximum average bankroll growth, but it's a wild ride, probably wilder than you realize. Most Kelly players back off a bit from the hairy edge, to a position with less risk. You don't have to always bet the exact Kelly optimum to play the "Kelly system". You can underbet for less risk, but you never overbet.

> >By the way, for information purposes, the approximate kelly number for FPDW is 26/.0077 = about 3400. A while back, myself and others derived the exact number, but I don't recall it at the moment, but it's close. Assuming the 3400 number then:
> >
> >To play 5 coin nickel FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $850.
> >To play 5 coin quarter FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $4250.
> >To play 5 coin dollar FPDW, your running bankroll must always be over $17,000.
>

There used to be and still is a lot of money in quarter slots. But in one of Bob Dancer's recent columns, he predicts the end of good quarter slots, and since he consults with casinos on how to beat the players, his predictions tend to come true. There does seem to be a trend where the best games are only available at high denominations, even at Harrah's which claims to market to the low roller. Read about Microsoft Billionaire Richard Brodie's adventures at Caesar's on the strip:

http://www.brodietech.com/liontales/2007/04/lucky-me.html

The truth is, even at Harrah's ("we're all in this together"), unless you have the 7-stars card, you don't get the good stuff.

So basically, we're all equal, just some are more equal than the rest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksnwIUyspps

···

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, a-1insp@... wrote:

Has anyone ever turned $17,000 into $34,000 simply playing quarters? I don't believe anyone's bankroll can increase by $17,000 just playing quarters, without a lot of other extracurricular add-ons. Â