From the referenced article:
"I believe any advice coming from an "expert" who still plays for
quarters is highly suspect ...
this reference is both demeaning and an intentional slam at
quarter VP players.
I read the slam as being directed at only one specific "expert"
in the ongoing feud between BD and DP.
vpFae
On 5 Apr 2006 at 20:08, mroejacks wrote:
vpfae wrote: I read the slam as being directed at only one specific
"expert"
in the ongoing feud between BD and DP.
Then you read it incorrectly, Tom, although Paymar is certainly among
the group of writers referred to. Numerous people have criticized the
article --- even to the point of criticizing me for things I didn't say
and certainly do not believe.
I have nothing against quarter players. They make up a large segment of
video poker players out there. Some of them are very knowledgeable ---
unquestionably. And there are competent players who "dabble" in video
poker, among many other pursuits. But these people don't usually hold
themselves out as experts and instruct others how to do it. There are
strong players who play for quarters only because they don't want W2Gs,
or they feel the game is recreation only for them. Great! But those
people don't usually hold themselves out to be experts and instruct
others how to do it.
The point of that section of the article was that I believe an expert
who chooses to teach others how to play should have considerable
experience in a variety of video poker situations --- including
quarters, dollars, and larger. If these experts are worthy of the name,
surely they will have been consistent winners at video poker. If you
know the game and have the discipline, video poker is not that
difficult. Obtaining a significant bankroll over time isn't that hard,
if you're truly an expert. If you haven't passed this "trial by fire",
and your goal is teach others how to play, I don't think you're much of
an expert.
As several people have noted, quarter percentage returns are
significantly higher than the returns at dollars and higher --- although
total return is much higher at the higher denominations if you can
survive the swings. It is more difficult to make a profit when your edge
is small than when it is large. It's the process of learning to play a
variety of games well, including relatively frequently learning new
games, that is a valuable learning experience. Unless you have gone
through that experience repeatedly, and successfully, you don't have
much depth as a teacher.
Numerous writers about video poker have NOT been successful players. It
makes you wonder what makes them think they have relevant information to
give to others. In the article I referenced a 400-pound person teaching
weight reduction classes. Would you find such a person credible? I
wouldn't.
In addition to being players, I believe video poker teachers should be
students of the game. In my autobiography I quoted a former Econ
professor of mine, Dr. William Allen, who said, "Research is to
teaching as sin is to confession. Without the first, you have nothing to
say in the second."
Whatever writer you like, go look at the last thirty articles of theirs
you can find. How many of those thirty are like others on their own list
and how many are new? I remember Brian (bjaygold) once wrote me an email
telling me that a recent (at the time) casinogaming.com column was a
virtual repeat of one I had written three years previously. It was
unintentional, but he was correct. I had forgotten I had covered the
subject matter before. But that's the only email I've gotten like that.
The writers who aren't playing (and learning new things) and not
studying the games are forced to recycle old articles over and over
again. I believe that is unfair to the reader.
I understand that my style is offensive to some people. So be it. I'm
doing the best that I can. Whether others agree with me or not, I'm
entitled to an opinion of what the qualifications of video poker writers
and teachers should be. And I expressed that in the article. Others have
been disagreeing with me over the past few days --- as is their right.
One highly qualified person on this forum who isn't currently
publishing, but who has all of the attributes of a good video poker
writer and teacher is Harry Porter. I've encouraged him repeatedly to
write for publication. (So have many others, including his wife). I hope
he takes up his pen and teaches us all something.
Bob Dancer
For the best in video poker information, visit www.bobdancer.com
or call 1-800-244-2224 M-F 9-5 Pacific Time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpFae6128305 wrote:
I read the slam as being directed at only one specific "expert"
That aspect of the comments, which was unmistakeable, can be deemed
unfortunate at best. To the extent that an "agenda" was expressed, it
can't be separated from the full message.
I'm sure it's clear that I steer clear of conflict to an extent that
is near neurotic. That said, I chose to weigh that portion of the
article setting aside any possible ulterior motivation. As should be
clear, I found the comments valid.
I freely admit that any distinction one might draw between those
individuals who've made remarkable contributions to the body of video
poker resources is of negligible consequence to the average player and
none are to be diminished.
- Harry
That's great, because I'm one of the others who have repeatedly asked
(begged?) Harry to write (for several years), but I had no idea Harry
fit Bob's qualifications.
I just thought he would be a good writer because he is able to write
knowledgably and clearly about video poker.
Silly me. I didn't realize that Harry has amassed a huge bankroll
playing in a "wide variety of video poker situations over the years".
Now he can not only write about the facts, logic and mathematics of
video poker that he does so well, but he can add all those great video
poker war stories where he plays high limit games with a tiny little
edge and teeters on the brink of disaster, but triumphs in the end by
skillfully hitting a timely royal flush! YAY!
Skip
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
One highly qualified person on this forum who isn't currently
publishing, but who has all of the attributes of a good video poker
writer and teacher is Harry Porter. I've encouraged him repeatedly to
write for publication. (So have many others, including his wife). I hope
he takes up his pen and teaches us all something.
I would join this discussion but I am just too busy writing a book (one that
will help the majority of VP players) to put down other writers in order to
boost my own fragile ego.
________________________________________
Jean $�ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!
LOL! You go girl!
Jean Scott <QueenofComps@frugalgambler.biz> wrote: I would join this discussion but I am just too busy writing a book (one that
will help the majority of VP players) to put down other writers in order to
boost my own fragile ego.
________________________________________
Jean $¢ott - http://www.FrugalGambler.biz
Tax time is coming up - groan! "Tax Help
for the Frugal Gambler" can answer many
of your questions!
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vpfae wrote: I read the slam as being directed at only one specific
"expert"
in the ongoing feud between BD and DP.Then you read it incorrectly, Tom, although Paymar is certainly
among
the group of writers referred to. Numerous people have criticized
the
article --- even to the point of criticizing me for things I didn't
say
and certainly do not believe.
Sounds like the slam was intended for MORE than one expert.
I have nothing against quarter players. They make up a large
segment of
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Dancer" <bob.dancer@...> wrote:
video poker players out there. Some of them are very knowledgeable -
--
unquestionably. And there are competent players who "dabble" in
video
poker, among many other pursuits. But these people don't usually
hold
themselves out as experts and instruct others how to do it.
I think you are using expert incorrectly. From Websters:
1 obsolete : EXPERIENCED
2 : having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge
derived from training or experience
Nowhere in this definition is mentioned anything about claiming
oneself an expert and clearly it is not relevant to being
an "expert". You either have the skill/experience or you don't. If
one has the skill/experience then it doesn't matter whether or not
they "hold themselves out as experts and instruct others how to do
it".
There are
strong players who play for quarters only because they don't want
W2Gs,
or they feel the game is recreation only for them. Great! But those
people don't usually hold themselves out to be experts and instruct
others how to do it.
As is now clear by the definition of "expert" ... it doesn't matter.
The point of that section of the article was that I believe an
expert
who chooses to teach others how to play should have considerable
experience in a variety of video poker situations --- including
quarters, dollars, and larger.
If this is true then please state EXACTLY what this "considerable
experience" provides. State how playing a higher denom
increases "special skill or knowledge".
If these experts are worthy of the name,
surely they will have been consistent winners at video poker. If you
know the game and have the discipline, video poker is not that
difficult. Obtaining a significant bankroll over time isn't that
hard,
if you're truly an expert.
Nor, is a requirement. Monetary gain is not mentioned anywhere in the
definition of 'expert".
If you haven't passed this "trial by fire",
and your goal is teach others how to play, I don't think you're
much of
an expert.
Sorry, this statement does not have anything to do with the
definition of an "expert" given above. It seems to me that you're
confusing "success at gambling" with "expert". By your definition the
gentlemen who won $3500 by holding only deuces should be considered
an "expert".
As several people have noted, quarter percentage returns are
significantly higher than the returns at dollars and higher ---
although
total return is much higher at the higher denominations if you can
survive the swings. It is more difficult to make a profit when your
edge
is small than when it is large.
The smaller the edge also requires that you live on the good side of
the bell curve. That's something no amount of skill/experience can
change.
It's the process of learning to play a
variety of games well, including relatively frequently learning new
games, that is a valuable learning experience. Unless you have gone
through that experience repeatedly, and successfully, you don't have
much depth as a teacher.
I've already shown the "success" aspect has little to do
with "expertise". And, as the definition of "expert" indicates, being
a good teacher has nothing to do with being an "expert". While all of
the items you noted can surely help increase "experience" and
therefore your qualifications for being an "expert", they are only
part of what it takes to be a good teacher.
In addition, I could not find anything in these items that limited
them to higher denom play. For example, I've learned and played 3
versions of OEJs, DB, DDB, JOB, BP, JP, SDB, NSUD, FPDW, progressive
variations and probably a few others. Most of these have been
quarters. I've found that learning a new game is not that difficult
after the first two or three.
Personally, I think VP "success" is often derived from choosing the
best plays based on non-VP related parameters. As analogy ... golfers
often choose the events they play based on how a course matches up to
their game, how to minimize travel, etc. They have nothing to do with
a golfers' "expertise" but are very important to their success.
Numerous writers about video poker have NOT been successful
players. It
makes you wonder what makes them think they have relevant
information to
give to others.
As noted before many of the BEST teachers in sports are not
successful participants. These teachers are sought out just to teach.
I think using "success" as an indication of "skill" has been proven
wrong many times over.
In the article I referenced a 400-pound person teaching
weight reduction classes. Would you find such a person credible? I
wouldn't.
Using extreme examples to make your case? The fact is, a 400 lb
person could have "experienced" weight reduction many times and
denomstrated that "skill" several times. They might be the best
teacher you could find.
In addition to being players, I believe video poker teachers should
be
students of the game. In my autobiography I quoted a former Econ
professor of mine, Dr. William Allen, who said, "Research is to
teaching as sin is to confession. Without the first, you have
nothing to
say in the second."
Spoken like a researcher. Strangely enough the vast majority of
teachers worldwide have never been involved in research. I think a
more commonly accepted viewpoint is that different skills are
involved in both research and teaching. Being "skilled" at either one
does not translate into "skills" at the other.
Whatever writer you like, go look at the last thirty articles of
theirs
you can find. How many of those thirty are like others on their own
list
and how many are new? I remember Brian (bjaygold) once wrote me an
telling me that a recent (at the time) casinogaming.com column was a
virtual repeat of one I had written three years previously. It was
unintentional, but he was correct. I had forgotten I had covered the
subject matter before. But that's the only email I've gotten like
that.
The writers who aren't playing (and learning new things) and not
studying the games are forced to recycle old articles over and over
again. I believe that is unfair to the reader.I understand that my style is offensive to some people. So be it.
I'm
doing the best that I can. Whether others agree with me or not, I'm
entitled to an opinion of what the qualifications of video poker
writers
and teachers should be. And I expressed that in the article. Others
have
been disagreeing with me over the past few days --- as is their
right.
To have an opinion is fine. Stating an unsupported opinion to dimish
others is not acceptable to me. Just be prepared to be criticized
when your opinion doesn't stand up to well.
One highly qualified person on this forum who isn't currently
publishing, but who has all of the attributes of a good video poker
writer and teacher is Harry Porter. I've encouraged him repeatedly
to
write for publication. (So have many others, including his wife). I
hope
he takes up his pen and teaches us all something.
I must say you have made some very good points. Bob, himself was a
quarter player and seems to have forgotten what it is like.
I take some exception to Bob's statement, "I believe any advice
coming from an "expert" who still plays for quarters is highly
suspect."
There are experts in various niches, and I believe that experts
in plays at various levels have a knowledge base relative to their
level -- and deserve respect for their knowledge and acumen.
By trying to convince us that he is the ONLY VP expert worth
listening to, Bob's statement disses the many recreational VP
players who learn strategy, practice, are disciplined and become
expert at quarter plays. To me, this strategy is back-firing,
since, as a (very well bankrolled) quarter player, I now know that
Bob holds us all in contempt. I don't know that I would trust him
to be expert in issues that are important to quarter players.
Seriously, how expert can an expert be if that expert is out of
touch with his or her constituents? Bob's statement reminded me of
Marie Antoinette's saying, "let them eat cake" (in response to
learning that the masses didn't have any bread). Both statements
indicate someone who doesn't understand mainstream issues.
I know that I ENJOY learning from folks who play at my level. I
know that they share my understanding of the value of various
promotions AND they share my frustrations. Rather than dissing
these folks, I think they should be applauded.
Otherwise, I guess Bob should consider limiting his market to
the hundred or so people who fit his criteria as being worthy enough
for his insights.
vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@...> wrote:
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--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be
made in a very narrow field."
--Niels Bohr
"An expert is someone who knows some of the worst mistakes that
can be made in his subject, and how to avoid them."
--Werner Heiseenberg
"Once you know the truth, you quickly realize that not everybody
who writes or lectures about gambling can be counted on to give
accurate advice."
--Jean Scott
"I'm not like other so-called experts that tell you how to play
and do just the opposite when playing themselves."
--Mike Goodman
'If you continually have to tell people that you are an expert,
you probably aren't.
--VP Pappy
I think it is still a very EASY choice (no matter how many people
and how many times they claim they are experts in any denominations).
Below experts to choose from:
Player1 -- a $1 player who had won a Million or so.
vs
Player2 -- a $0.25 player who may have won lots of money also but,
had shown no evidence (in books or news or other means).
Who would I go for advice or take free lessons or two?
You can bet on it..... I'll pick Player1 anytime!!!
I must say you have made some very good points. Bob, himself was
a
quarter player and seems to have forgotten what it is like.
>
> I take some exception to Bob's statement, "I believe any advice
coming from an "expert" who still plays for quarters is highly
suspect."
>
> There are experts in various niches, and I believe that
experts
in plays at various levels have a knowledge base relative to their
level -- and deserve respect for their knowledge and acumen.
>
> By trying to convince us that he is the ONLY VP expert worth
listening to, Bob's statement disses the many recreational VP
players who learn strategy, practice, are disciplined and become
expert at quarter plays. To me, this strategy is back-firing,
since, as a (very well bankrolled) quarter player, I now know that
Bob holds us all in contempt. I don't know that I would trust him
to be expert in issues that are important to quarter players.
>
> Seriously, how expert can an expert be if that expert is out
of
touch with his or her constituents? Bob's statement reminded me
of
Marie Antoinette's saying, "let them eat cake" (in response to
learning that the masses didn't have any bread). Both statements
indicate someone who doesn't understand mainstream issues.
>
> I know that I ENJOY learning from folks who play at my level.
I
know that they share my understanding of the value of various
promotions AND they share my frustrations. Rather than dissing
these folks, I think they should be applauded.
>
> Otherwise, I guess Bob should consider limiting his market to
the hundred or so people who fit his criteria as being worthy
enough
for his insights.
>
> vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@> wrote:
> How Much Money Do You Have?
>
> http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html
>
> <a
href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html">
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "missdeuces" <missdeuces@...> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@> wrote:
> http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html</a>
>
>
> ************************************************
>
> This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
> constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
> content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
> in accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.
>
> ************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I think it is still a very EASY choice (no matter how many people
and how many times they claim they are experts in any
denominations).
Below experts to choose from:
Player1 -- a $1 player who had won a Million or so.
vs
Player2 -- a $0.25 player who may have won lots of money also but,
had shown no evidence (in books or news or other means).Who would I go for advice or take free lessons or two?
You can bet on it..... I'll pick Player1 anytime!!!
Everyone has a right to their opinion. Tiger Woods has made 100s of
millions and have you every heard of Hank Haney? Yeah, he's the one
Tiger goes to for advice.
This doesn't mean that Tiger or anyone successful can't be an
excellent teacher. It simply means success and teaching skills are
not necessarily related.
It is also true that knowledge and teaching skills are not completely
related. Let me use myself as an example. When I worked I was
arguably the expert in a very narrow field. I would go to conferences
and give lectures in that field. Another gentlemen who attended many
of my lectures and used the product himself also started giving some
lectures a few years later. Who do you think was the better teacher?
There was no comparison. He was a far superior teacher. While my
lectures were absolutely accurate, they were totally boring. The
other guy just "knew" how to make the subject far more interesting.
As a result students in his classes came out with a much better
understanding of a difficult subject. Simply put, I could never be as
good a teacher as this person, I just did not have the "skill" to
make the subject matter simple and understandable and entertain at
the same time.
Dick
PS. There were always some folks who would attend my lectures simply
because I was the "expert".
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "gilbert_616" <gilbert_616@...> wrote:
Thank you!
Lainie
I must say you have made some very good points. Bob, himself was a
quarter player and seems to have forgotten what it is like.
I take some exception to Bob's statement, "I believe any advice
coming from an "expert" who still plays for quarters is highly
suspect."
There are experts in various niches, and I believe that experts
in plays at various levels have a knowledge base relative to their
level -- and deserve respect for their knowledge and acumen.
By trying to convince us that he is the ONLY VP expert worth
listening to, Bob's statement disses the many recreational VP
players who learn strategy, practice, are disciplined and become
expert at quarter plays. To me, this strategy is back-firing,
since, as a (very well bankrolled) quarter player, I now know that
Bob holds us all in contempt. I don't know that I would trust him
to be expert in issues that are important to quarter players.
Seriously, how expert can an expert be if that expert is out of
touch with his or her constituents? Bob's statement reminded me of
Marie Antoinette's saying, "let them eat cake" (in response to
learning that the masses didn't have any bread). Both statements
indicate someone who doesn't understand mainstream issues.
I know that I ENJOY learning from folks who play at my level. I
know that they share my understanding of the value of various
promotions AND they share my frustrations. Rather than dissing
these folks, I think they should be applauded.
Otherwise, I guess Bob should consider limiting his market to
the hundred or so people who fit his criteria as being worthy enough
for his insights.
vpFREE Administrator <vp_free@...> wrote:
How Much Money Do You Have?http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html
<a
href="http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html">
http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2006/0404.html</a>
************************************************
This link is posted for informational purposes and doesn't
constitute an endorsement or approval of the linked article's
content by vpFREE. Any discussion of the article must be done
in accordance with vpFREE's rules and policies.************************************************
vpFREE Links: http://members.cox.net/vpfree/Links.htm
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missdeuces <missdeuces@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, Lainie Wolf <lainiewolf702@...> wrote:
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