vpFREE2 Forums

Bob Dancer ethics

HUH?
Past posts will certainly show I am not a Rob Singer flag-waver. I was merely trying to be objective and ask a question. I was actually trying to put aside my disagreement with RS's approach to VP (IMHO) and see if someone could explain how what he allegedly does for casinos is different.

Is that a clear enough stand? LOL

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Helmut Wolf" <hewolf@cox.net>
To: <vpFREE@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 12:25 PM
Subject: [vpFREE] Re to ednar

ednar, although your message tells me that you have a positive opinion
towards Rob Singer, you did not take a position. You emphasized twice the
fact that you endorse neither side. But if you want to be counted in real
life, you have to have an opinion and stand up for it, even if it turns out
you were wrong.
Helmut

====================================
ednar wrote:

Harry....
I am not endorsing either "side" here. However one question. Doesn't Rob
Singer claim to do the same as Bob Dancer? And IF, RS had anything to do
with the few good machines at Wynn, then we have evidence of him actually
improving things for players. (Note: I am NOT endorsing RS, I am just
asking
a question.) I assume that when BD reveals the results of his negotiations
then we will have evidence to compare with what RS has claimed to have
accomplished. Do we have any evidence that RS consults with casinos to
eliminate "mistakes" that cost them money? Maybe we do, I do not know, I
am
just asking.....

Anybody posting even the initials of that guy should be made to read and commit to memory all of the extant columns he's posted in GT.
JT

···

ednar <ednar@kconline.com> wrote:
Harry....
I am not endorsing either "side" here. However one question. Doesn't Rob
Singer claim to do the same as Bob Dancer? And IF, RS had anything to do
with the few good machines at Wynn, then we have evidence of him actually .....
    
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I want to add my name to the list of people who were helped by Bob Dancer. I went to his seminar's at Ceasars and the Borgota in Atlantic City, and learned a lot. I bought his Win Poker and learned even more.
   As to the people attacking Bob Dancer's ethics, please keep your opinoin's to yourself. Everyone has to decide what they can do and still look themself in the mirror every morning. Its like some of the Congressmen who say its wrong to be homosexual, but then cheat on their wife. Everyone decide's their own ethics, and everyone decide's who to trust, follow and admire and whose advice they want to ignore.

Ned C.
The Wild Joker

Cogno Scienti wrote:
<<Most, but not all, players benefit from the casino consulting I do.>>

Not to mention the articles you write about how slot directors can
identify advantage players and prevent making mistakes that allow
them to make money.

Yep, no doubt you're identifying yourself as one for whom Dancer could
hardly be considered an "advocate" in the guise of his consulting
activities. But just who do you expect to be rooting in your corner?

You give strong indication that you're at the extreme of "advantage
play", most likely a heavy pro, semi-pro, or pro-wannabe who desires
to supplement his income with play EV.

Other pros may applaud and admire your discretion in the casino (maybe
not) and share some opportunities. But count on them to keep a wary
eye on you and shun you should they sense that you're encroaching upon
a very limited play that of which they're currently taking advantage.

As far as the recreational "advantage" player, you likely present one
of the strongest endangerments to attractive plays to be found. It's
the "pros" who are constantly scouting out the most positive plays and
then playing them hard that keep floor managers paranoia strong and
fearful to offer even modestly attractive plays.

Perhaps, indeed, you do rest among the ranks of recreational
"advantage" players, simply on the lookout for a way to engage in a
pleasant pasttime without risking a hefty draw on your HELOC to fund
downturns on an excessively negative play. In that case, you give
evidence of possessing the intellect to grasp that pro play doesn't
favor your endeavor.

···

Harry Porter <harry.porter@verizon.net> wrote:

------

Among the greater body of recreational players here, Dancer's
activities are a mixed bag. But I'd suggest they have an overall
positive influence.

Most anyone who's been active in their play has encountered the fairly
extreme risk averse nature of casino management. While on one hand
they desire to be friendly allies of their patrons, they're extremely
sensitive to the damage an unintentionally strong play/promotion can
inflict on the casino's bottom line. Above all, these are businessman
reportable to senior management, not representatives of a casino
player's Welcome Wagon.

The more poorly informed casino management is about the economics of
floor operations, the poorer the quality of their decision making.
And that, in turn, gives rise to insecurities that result in
unfriendly actions toward players. If Dancer comes along and
instructs casinos how strong games can be a profitable venture for the
casino (casinos that otherwise might fail to offer anything better
than 9/5 Jacks, and likely worse), how can the recreational player
fail to benefit?

But no doubt, hat in hand, with that info will be education in how to
avoid the pitfalls of promotions that bring in the droves of "pros" to
rape and pillage better plays and then desert the casino. There's no
arguing that the intelligent recreational player, who knows how to
keep an eye out for an occasional strong play is going to see
diminished opportunities of the exceptional sort.

------

Is Dancer "playing both sides of the fence"? If you view casino
management and advantage players as adversaries, of course. But if
you perceive any casino that offers a fair shake for intelligent
players as being attractive, then Dancer's activities stand to work to
the benefit of casinos and players alike.

- Harry

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My recollection is that Rob Singer says he talked to management
at Tuscany and at Wynn and that he advised them to put in some
positive machines. In both cases he reported that they would be
putting these positive machines in shortly. Tuscany did not put in
the machines that he mentioned while Wynn did.

AFAIK Singer isn't in the casino consulting business and the only
compensation he received from Tuscany or Wynn may have been
some free food and accomodations.

vpFae

···

On 2 Nov 2005 at 6:44, ednar wrote:

... Doesn't Rob Singer claim to do the same as Bob Dancer? And IF,
RS had anything to do with the few good machines at Wynn, then we
have evidence of him actually improving things for players. (Note: I
am NOT endorsing RS, I am just asking a question.) I assume that when
BD reveals the results of his negotiations then we will have evidence
to compare with what RS has claimed to have accomplished. Do we have
any evidence that RS consults with casinos to eliminate "mistakes"
that cost them money? Maybe we do, I do not know, I am just
asking.....

THANK YOU for the answer. That is what I was wondering. There was no hidden agenda.

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "vpFae6128305" <vpfae6128305@Cox.net>

My recollection is that Rob Singer says he talked to management
at Tuscany and at Wynn and that he advised them to put in some
positive machines. In both cases he reported that they would be
putting these positive machines in shortly. Tuscany did not put in
the machines that he mentioned while Wynn did.

AFAIK Singer isn't in the casino consulting business and the only
compensation he received from Tuscany or Wynn may have been
some free food and accomodations.

vpFae

The quad frequency for a random/fair video poker machine is
a known function of the game's paytable and the playing
strategy used.

If you have any evidence that this isn't true for the games at
Wynn, you should report it to the NV Gaming Commission.

vpFae

···

On 2 Nov 2005 at 19:22, gilbert_616 wrote:

"a few good machines?" and they were "empty" hmmmm.....maybe they
aren't soooo gooood after all otherwise... Wynn may want to take them
all away for good... (IGT knows the Quad frequencies on these machines -
we don't unfortunately)

--- In vpFREE@yahoogroups.com, "vpFae6128305" <vpfae6128305@C...>
wrote:

> "a few good machines?" and they were "empty" hmmmm.....maybe they
> aren't soooo gooood after all otherwise... Wynn may want to take

them

> all away for good... (IGT knows the Quad frequencies on these

machines -

···

On 2 Nov 2005 at 19:22, gilbert_616 wrote:
> we don't unfortunately)

The quad frequency for a random/fair video poker machine is
a known function of the game's paytable and the playing
strategy used.

If you have any evidence that this isn't true for the games at
Wynn, you should report it to the NV Gaming Commission.

vpFae

-------------------------------------------------------------

Report to the NV Gaming Commission??? Oh, no no no.... (love those
free rooms too much!!!)
We're talking machines in vegas here.....where ALL is FAIR and RANDOM.
(That's why these machines are occupied with pros/semi-pros most of
the time.) Rob Singer probably plays these machines all the time!?

It was just quite a shocking scene to see the machines "empty" for at
least a few hours last weekend. Only tried 2 of the machines putting
in about $1000 and the bad luck came right in --- 0 quad for the
whole 2-3 hour session (Didn't I practice enough on WinPoker? :>).
That's RNG at its best! Somebody must have hit quads after quads
before I sat on those 2 machines (i should have tried the other 2).
As soon as I switched to the 9/6 DDB, dealt quad 2s, hit another quad
As, then a Royal. That was good enough for me!